Christiaan Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm having some serious problems with a model and the production of elevations and sections. Nemetschek have had the files for a week or so but are struggling to find a solution. I'm two weeks over a minor deadline but more serious deadlines are looming this week and I'm starting to get desperate. Any help appreciated. Files and symptoms: 1. Section file: VW hard-crashes if I try to render Section Viewports with "Display objects beyond View Plane" option on. Hidden line renders also take a very long time. 2. Elevations file: Same as above so I'm swapping to normal viewports (and so I can show Windoor ID tags) but I'm getting significant graphical glitches (see attached screenshot). 3. Model file: model file is set to open showing one of the WinDoor objects I've been having a problem with. Suspects: I've had some problems keeping corner WinDoor objects snapped to corners. So I suspect either WinDoor or perhaps Walls, or something about the Walls such as Tiles or Textures are causing an underlying problem. Usually hidden line render crashes have something to do with objects being miles away from the model or something similar. Files can be downloaded here: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/rhgfpacsry02nzh/model-files.zip?dl=1 Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Actually I think I've isolated the problem to windows W22 and W41 which are corner window WinDoor objects set to snap to wall corners. (at least the hidden line crashing problem) Quote Link to comment
Chris D Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 If there's one item on the wishlist for VW2013...it's 2D elevations from 3D models...working...out of the box. Forget everything else until this works. Quote Link to comment
Alan H Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 If there's one item on the wishlist for VW2013...it's 2D elevations from 3D models...working...out of the box. Forget everything else until this works. I couldn't agree more! Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Modelling is a dirty word in our office at the moment. Think I might go jump off a cliff if we have to return to 2D. I've managed to get it to a point where we can render a section, but only once. If we make changes and update the ref then render again, it crashes. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 To add to the list: slabs are not cutting into walls properly on my sections. Does it on some walls, sometimes. But not all walls all the time. Between dealing with crashes and various bugs I've managed to work on the model for about 30 mins today. #BIMfail Quote Link to comment
Stan Rostas Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Christiaan, I have been able to update the Elevations but it seems some of the textures you had are now not showing up upon update. You seem to have all the DPI settings fairly high when 150 is about all that is needed for printing. Attempting to update the sections will post when I have results. Quote Link to comment
Stan Rostas Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Christiaan, If you can get a good render you may want to copy then convert to group so you have a 2d facsimile of the rendering. Place and scale on a design layer and you can then add other detail on top. Work around I know but gets you to deadline. Regards, Stan Quote Link to comment
Stan Rostas Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Christiaan, Was able to generate a section with objects beyond, so far have not had any crashes. You may not want to update them all at once, but one at a time. Have had numerous issues with updating all at once as the RAM space runs out during the process causing the crash. If you update one at a time the RAM space has time to reset before the next update. Regards, Stan Edited July 23, 2012 by Stan Rostas Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Christiaan, I also had troubles with your files the time I had a look at them. I didn't check some things, but see if the dpi of the sheet layers is not too high and that the 3D conversion resolution is also not to high, these are factors that can really speed up the render time. Quote Link to comment
Chris D Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Proof that rendering isn't the answer to getting 2D from 3D. Vector-based hidden-line display of 2D, with 3D vector hatches as required is the solution for elevations from models. VECTORworks should be able to do this. The building isn't complex but it looks like it's too much for VW to produce rastered (rendered) large scale detailed images on an iMac (even an i7 one with max RAM). A Mac Pro might help but the demands on hardware are still too much...yet. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 Thanks for the advice guys. I've found I need 300 dpi to get a good print, but I'll give 200 a go. I also have 3D conversion on Very High, so I'll try this on High or Medium. The thing is I've done much larger more intensive renders than these on my last project, and in colour. There's just something very wrong with this file. Like a corrupt wall or texture or something. Stan, it looks like some of the ground floor layers are turned off in the section. I've managed to isolate [some of?] the problem to these layers so this might be why you were able to render the sections? With regard to the elevation, did you try rendering the elevation on sheet 400? This is the one I getting the lines going off into infinity on. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 Proof that rendering isn't the answer to getting 2D from 3D. I was expecting to have to put aside time to work out how best to do things, but that's not what I'm spending my time on. The problem is all that allotted time and more is being soaked up on serious deficiencies. I should be working out where we're missing structural elements, how those spaces on the top floor are going to work best, finishing the roof structure, dealing with balcony levels and connections, ceiling linings, etc. Which I'm not. I'm not even working out the best way convey these things in the model. Instead I've spent two weeks trying to figure out how to stop VW crashing and how to make it display what it should be displaying. The support I'm getting is great (VSS UK are currently going through all the objects in my model). The problem is Vectorworks is just a big steaming turd. Edit: It's like dominoes. What you end up doing is going around trying to fix things one after the other. You resolve one issue only to have another crop up, and on and on. Actually at the moment I'm not resolving issues, they're just piling up on top of one another. Quote Link to comment
Stan Rostas Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Christiaan, I have discovered that if I attempt to update two VPs as opposed to just one then VW will hang and need to be forced quit. I had taken the files just as you had posted them but have not turned on all design layers accept for the site and a single VP will update. I have to continue to free up memory. Some of this could be the DPI of the textures you are using. If they are to high even in HL you could see issues. Will perform some other test later today. Have to continue to free RAM by the way after each VP update Edited July 24, 2012 by Stan Rostas Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Stan, thanks again. Helps just to be able to vent to others. Not sure why you're not having as many problems. You're the only one out of me, Nemetschek, VSS UK, and Dieter it seems. After running into other problems today, such as slabs (that are properly auto-bound) not cutting into walls and objects still showing in SLVPs even though they're turned off in the WGR'd DLVP, I've tried creating a section directly in my model file, instead of workgroup referenced file, and so far things are going more smoothly (we'll see). http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=174207 http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=174209 Hardly surprising really. I don't think I've ever not had problems with workgroup referencing. The system is an antiquated joke. This is pretty annoying though because means we now need to share the model around the team to get any work done. Edit: forgot to add #BIMfail Edited July 24, 2012 by Christiaan Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 So to give you an update, first of all I ditched Workgroup Referencing and resorted to Sheet Layer Viewports directly in the model. This resolved the issue with crashing and all the graphical glitches (incl. objects being visible in the SLVP even though they were turned off in the DLVP). And it sped up render times up. Then, based on VSS UK advice, I went through the entire model and made sure all objects I needed in the model were not on None class and then turned off None class in the Viewports, which included door hardware. This helped sped render times up even further. I was ready to ditch Workgroup Referencing altogether but VSS UK tell me today that they've found a way to use Workgroup Referencing without the problems: use the old style Layer Import mode instead of DLVPs. I'll give this a go tomorrow. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 So to give you an update, first of all I ditched Workgroup Referencing and resorted to Sheet Layer Viewports directly in the model. This resolved the issue with crashing and all the graphical glitches (incl. objects being visible in the SLVP even though they were turned off in the DLVP). And it sped up render times up. So for everyone: avoid workgroup referencing! Really sad, because in theory, it's just so good to have it. Then, based on VSS UK advice, I went through the entire model and made sure all objects I needed in the model were not on None class and then turned off None class in the Viewports, which included door hardware. This helped sped render times up even further. It seems to me that your class system isn't good enough for what you are trying to achief. When creating elevations, you must be able to turn off all classes that will not be visible, this can only be done when everything is classed right. I know it's not that simple to create a good classing system, but once you have it, you can just hide all classes in less than a minute. I was ready to ditch Workgroup Referencing altogether but VSS UK tell me today that they've found a way to use Workgroup Referencing without the problems: use the old style Layer Import mode instead of DLVPs. I'll give this a go tomorrow. The old layer import mode??? But then you have no control over the visibility and attributes of the classes. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) It seems to me that your class system isn't good enough for what you are trying to achief. When creating elevations, you must be able to turn off all classes that will not be visible, this can only be done when everything is classed right. I know it's not that simple to create a good classing system, but once you have it, you can just hide all classes in less than a minute. Our class system is fine. It's more about sticking to it religiously (even for things like the paths of EAP objects, etc.). And it also ensures that things like door hardware, which Nemetschek have on None class by default, is turned off by default. The old layer import mode??? But then you have no control over the visibility and attributes of the classes. Actually you do. And it's much better because you get to control them on the SLVP instead of having to use the middle man DLVP. Moral of the story: avoid DLVP workgroup referencing like the plague. Edited July 27, 2012 by Christiaan Quote Link to comment
Chris D Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Actually you do. And it's much better because you get to control them on the SLVP instead of having to use the middle man DLVP. This drives me nuts about DLVPs....having to have duplicate references on top of each other just because SLVPs can't control the classes of the DLVPs. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) By the way, my hidden line sections are rendering in 2-5 seconds now. When you get problems like this that gradually get worse you almost forget what it's meant to be like. Edited July 27, 2012 by Christiaan Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Actually you do. And it's much better because you get to control them on the SLVP instead of having to use the middle man DLVP. True, but you can't move them where you want and duplicate them as many times etc... So for types of units, this isn't a good option, though we can still use symbols for that. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 True, but you can't move them where you want and duplicate them as many times etc. Small sacrifice as we can do this with SLVPs. I think the main negative implication is DWG exports and not being able to bind xrefs. Quote Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.