Assembly Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Oh how the grass is always greener. Revit can puke out quantity schedules like a teenage hangover. But I hear many of Revit users complain that it is hard to get good and clear drawing out of the system. My little office has built its reputation with clients and contractors alike with the quality and clarity of drawings. Vector works ability to collage drawings with color lines, transparency, images, PDF make it a fast and efficient drawing program. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 To think you have the most postings and BIM critiques and your first BIM project was modeling your house refurbishment? Thats ironic... lets hope they (NAG) dont follow your example. Actually we still haven't done a BIM project. All we've done is modelled in 3D with BIM principles in mind (i.e. a single model approach while anticipating any scheduling, IFC, etc. issues). We've used a single model approach before when I modelled a large project in 2006 but we went back to 2D because it simply wasn't economic. The difference this time is that we managed to keep our heads above the water, mainly because the schemes leant themselves to it for one reason or another but also because 3D VW has improved greatly since 2006. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Oh how the grass is always greener. Revit can puke out quantity schedules like a teenage hangover. But I hear many of Revit users complain that it is hard to get good and clear drawing out of the system. My little office has built its reputation with clients and contractors alike with the quality and clarity of drawings. Vector works ability to collage drawings with color lines, transparency, images, PDF make it a fast and efficient drawing program I'm sure Vincent would agree with you. What he's saying, however, is that from his experience using these alternatives he is finding VW less and less economic. Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) I'm sure Vincent would agree with you. What he's saying, however, is that from his experience using these alternatives he is finding VW less and less economic. Not when you look at the whole process from beginning to end as a designer/architect, only when it comes to hard drafting and production of construction documents, non the less this is generally a necessary part of most projects, for small projects the time lost isn't so great however for larger projects there is quite a lot of time saved by using programs like Revit and ArchiCAD instead at the moment. My frustration lies mostly in that the technology is right there however I don't have the means or competence to do the programming myself. A good example of this is schedules, almost any information can be taken out however just creating a schedule for doors and windows according to local building standards would take me anything from half to 2 days work, at $150 an hour that's a yearly upgrade right there for one schedule! How long can it take an experienced programmer to create a simple dialog box to create and edit schedules in understandable english and with editable visual properties? So yes i'm prepared to pay double the yearly upgrade if I avoid doing programming myself, it pays off for me on just one project large or small...... Edited April 24, 2012 by Vincent C Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 "To think you have the most postings and BIM critiques and your first BIM project was modeling your house refurbishment? Thats ironic... lets hope they (NAG) dont follow your example." Point exactly mate. Users would be doing lots more BIM and IFC if the program would better provide for it. I understand everyone's frustration, I have it too, but I'm also doing completely 3D/BIM projects in VW for a couple of years now, and it is capable of doing it, but it could be way better. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 How long can it take an experienced programmer to create a simple dialog box to create and edit schedules in understandable english and with editable visual properties? That's the problem. It isn't that simple. And they have made it harder by rebuilding the program bit by bit in between. I have the feeling that they just add stuff to the program withouth thinking at the complete package. And the stuff that goes is is mostly half-baked. I really hope they get it right for the next version instead of making a dropbox clone. Quote Link to comment
bcd Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 if this takes hold then we're only just beginning: http://planet.vectorworks.net/2012/04/chinese-language-version-of-vectorworks-2012-is-launched/ Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 if this takes hold then we're only just beginning: http://planet.vectorworks.net/2012/04/chinese-language-version-of-vectorworks-2012-is-launched/ Well the schedules already look like they are in Chinese :grin: Quote Link to comment
Kevin McAllister Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I think they actually face a fairly steep uphill battle. A lot of areas of the program are lagging behind all at once. Vectorworks diversity was probably once its strength but has now become its weakness. What architects need vs. lighting designers vs. landscape designers vs. furniture designers vs. engineers vs. who knows what else. NNA's resources are split and it can only give a certain amount of attention to each group of users. There is a lot of competition in the various markets, but each competitor is better at only one or two aspects of what Vectorworks does. While architects are considering switching to Revit, Bentley, Archicad etc. I look how powerful some of the low end 3D programs have become (Rhino, FormZ, Bonzai3D for modelling / the basic version of Cinema 4D for modelling and rendering). None of those pieces of software can handle drawing sets, which is a big problem, but all of them are more flexible design tools for what I do. And all of them are better value. Someone mentioned Fundamentals above. Its not really viable for anything. Crippling high end software and trying to market it as your low end solution just doesn't fly in today's market. Software companies are innovating all over the place. Just look at what you can do on an iPad. In a way the "basic version" of Vectorworks should actually be Designer. Batch printing, Sheet Layers, Drawing Co-ordination, Import/Export options, Basic Reports, a basic architectural tools (walls, simple door, simple window, simple stair) etc. are all basic workflow necessities. And many cheaper, completive packages include these options already. BIM,on the other hand, is a pretty specialized market. I have no problem spending money on something that makes me more productive. But I am starting to feel like Vectorworks is not good value. Quote Link to comment
bcd Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Well the schedules already look like they are in Chinese :grin: Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 if this takes hold then we're only just beginning: http://planet.vectorworks.net/2012/04/chinese-language-version-of-vectorworks-2012-is-launched/ Hate to be a "party pooper" but Archicad and (mostly) BENTLEY have been "cleaning up in China" for several years now...Love to know where allplan and VWS were during the last Olympics? To Think Bentley gloats about their finished projects here http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Corporate/Publications/The%20Project%20Yearbook/Year%20in%20Infrastructure.htm The Chinese love innovation/winners no prize for second place I ask Why cant NAG AEC users be winners too? Quote Link to comment
Tom G. Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 With respect to Christiann's post, in my opinion it takes quite a while of working in the single-model format to decide how to address that format efficiently and hence how effective your BIM processes are. You can't set out to design in BIM without the evolution of your own drawing processes. You need many projects completed from the extraction process of mining the 3D model before you can know how effective Vectorworks is or is not. Your creativity and disciple--not just the quality of the CAD tool--is most important, same as when you were drawing by hand, only now more so since CAD options have exponentially expanded in the last decade. Bottom line is this: You define what BIM is via your own unique 3D experience. You can't really, meaningfully compare Vwks with Revit, etc. without this experience. Tom Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 It's a fair point Tom but there are people here with ArchiCAD/Revit experience making the same arguments. I've basically fully modelled 6 buildings so far. Furthermore I have had some experience with ArchiCAD and have found it about 3 times faster than VW. At one point I was having difficulty making a stair work in my little refurb model. I wasted a whole evening and had a long discussion about it here on this forum before resolving it. During that process I downloaded a trial of the latest ArchiCAD, installed it, opened a file and modelled the stair exactly as I wanted. It took 15 mins to download and install and about 1 minute to model the stair. I'm not coming at this from a blank canvas. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 With respect to Christiann's post, in my opinion it takes quite a while of working in the single-model format to decide how to address that format efficiently and hence how effective your BIM processes are. You can't set out to design in BIM without the evolution of your own drawing processes. You need many projects completed from the extraction process of mining the 3D model before you can know how effective Vectorworks is or is not. Your creativity and disciple--not just the quality of the CAD tool--is most important, same as when you were drawing by hand, only now more so since CAD options have exponentially expanded in the last decade. Bottom line is this: You define what BIM is via your own unique 3D experience. You can't really, meaningfully compare Vwks with Revit, etc. without this experience. Tom Totally agree with this. I have experienced this myself. That's why I'm in between the two sides. VW is really good at bim, but it lacks at some important parts to be beyond normal good. I also want to add that the user must not want to force the program to do something he/she wants. It's also the user that needs to adapt to the program and learn how to best work with it and find creative ways of doing thing better. And as said, this will only come when doing lots of bim projects. Like I have said before, try adding something new or refining something on every project and you'll see.... Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 It's also the user that needs to adapt to the program and learn how to best work with it and find creative ways of doing thing better. This is stating the obvious in terms of use. But it's totally untrue in terms of development. The software needs to adapt to humans in this regard. Tell me, for instance, how the user adapting to the program is going to make corner bay windows any easier and economically feasible to model? Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Your creativity and disciple--not just the quality of the CAD tool--is most important, same as when you were drawing by hand, only now more so since CAD options have exponentially expanded in the last decade. This misses an important point: BIM is a different beast to CAD and freehand. For BIM to be economic it requires the use of a lot of automation and intelligent objects. When one of those tools has a limitation (such as the window tool's inability to mitre both ends of a window for use in a bay window) it doesn't matter how creative you are, the tool just stops being useful. I'm also curious Tom, what kind of projects do you work on and how many people are in your practice? Quote Link to comment
Tom G. Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Christiaan: You'll note in my post that I didn't spend any time at all elevating one CAD program over another or taking issue with the way Vwks works, good or bad. I tend, in my posts, to write for the Unknown User* rather than to the author himself who is frequently already well informed. Forgive me if my post seemed to challenge your assertions. My point is that when working from the 3D model, the path toward efficiency and productivity is different with each user or group of users, and this has to be learned first-hand, in battle. This is true of the sole proprietor--of which I am one, thank you--to multi-member firms. It stands to reason that if we are debating the meaning of BIM, we may still be in our infancy regarding how we manage it in our practices. There is no argument about BIM vs Freehand. My point was about managing the tools, period. Tom *I've spent near to a decade hosting or co-hosting the Seattle Vectorworks Users Group which, as a result, informs my response in discussions on CAD. Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Bottom line is this: You define what BIM is via your own unique 3D experience. You can't really, meaningfully compare Vwks with Revit, etc. without this experience. Tom Your Kidding right? You can only do that if you control all aspects, Bankroll, Design, Engineering & Construction and you dont have to collaborate.Otherwise your version of BIM is Artistic Nonsense "Expensive wallpaper". FYI " Banks dont lend money on Artistic renderings- wheres the DATA (and who guarantees it)." Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 My point is that when working from the 3D model, the path toward efficiency and productivity is different with each user or group of users, and this has to be learned first-hand, in battle. This is true of the sole proprietor--of which I am one, thank you--to multi-member firms. I don't think it's insignificant that arguments like "people just need more training" or "more experience", or some similar vein, almost always come from sole practitioners. If I was a sole practitioner I would have been using a single-model approach since the 90s (and I'd probably be making the same erroenous arguments). Yes of course more experience and training will make you more efficient at using VW. That's stating the obvious. But you don't need "many projects completed" to realise that many of the "time-saving" features used to sell VW often fall short in real-world use (corner windows and wall sculpting are two pretty good examples, of many): http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=169668 And you don't need a huge amount of experience with the alternatives to realise that their development trajectory is quite different. Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 (edited) You can't set out to design in BIM without the evolution of your own drawing processes. Your creativity and disciple--not just the quality of the CAD tool--is most important, same as when you were drawing by hand, only now more so since CAD options have exponentially expanded in the last decade. Bottom line is this: You define what BIM is via your own unique 3D experience. You can't really, meaningfully compare Vwks with Revit, etc. without this experience. Tom In my experience most time spent developing my BIM workflow for each new release has not been learning how to use the existing/new tools effectively but mainly in learning how to create functioning workarounds for their deficiencies......so yes in a way you're right Tom because in VWs that usually is the same thing, but it is very frustrating and it's a pity because it reflects negatively on the software. This was basically my point when starting the thread....should 'we' put up with this or not? Are 'we' willing to pay more to avoid this? Is NV willing to invest more to get rid of this? Edited April 26, 2012 by Vincent C Quote Link to comment
Tom G. Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Yes, Vincent, you're spot on regarding your inference from my post. Tom And Christiaan, shame on you for reading negativity into my last post. I was not being snide or snippy when I said "Forgive me if my post seemed to challenge your assertions." You might open the window and enjoy some of the spring air. It will do you good. (Still being sincere.) Quote Link to comment
Chris D Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 You might open the window and enjoy some of the spring air. I wouldn't do that....it's London...full of fumes and it's been raining all week too. What happened to Spring? Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 And Christiaan, shame on you for reading negativity into my last post. He's always like that...probably all the spring fumes...... :grin: (just kidding C). Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Heh, yes don't mind me Tom. I'm here to make sure this forum doesn't fall into a quagmire of positive platitudes. You know when I say something positive it is truly heartfelt. Quote Link to comment
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