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100 student rooms: how do we BIM it Nemetschek?


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Yes you can, they are created and edited exactly like in VWs symbols.

If they're exactly like symbols in VW then how do they allow for variations between doors? Can you have a different door size in one room for instance? Or does that change all of them?

No,that's no different, it changes all, in that case I suggest you keep the walls which have different doors out of the group/symbol.

I see, so ultimately the same problem exists that exists in VW (apart from being able to schedule the individual doors within the symbol, which you can't do in VW).

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If we take your example above: you have 100 rooms and they are basically the same with a few exceptions, I suggest you create symbols with the different variations and edit those as necessary, if this leads to a large variety of symbols the need for symbols seems unnecessary to start with. Do you follow? If it is the doors that would create the large number of different variations I suggest creating symbols without the walls carrying the different doors.....

Edited by Vincent C
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I think you're thinking a bit too abstract now C. If you have a certain 'type' regardless of if it is a door or a room and you change something in one of them it automatically becomes a different type than the original and therefore needs a different name/id., right?

No, not necessarily. Types can be similar, they don't need to be exact.

For instance in the UK/NZ we routinely refer to types of doors because they have similar characteristics, such as size. But each instance may have variations in door frame depth for instance, but we wouldn't start creating separate Types for all of these doors.

See here for more in-depth description:

http://needleandmortar.com/wiki/Door_Tool_improvements_(2012)

And this goes for all sorts of objects and arrangements of objects. Not just doors.

Edited by Christiaan
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No, not necessarily. Types can be similar, they don't need to be exact.

For instance in the UK/NZ we routinely refer to types of doors because they have similar characteristics, such as size. But each instance may have variations in door frame depth for instance, but we wouldn't start creating types for all of these doors.

Ah no in that case, change a parameter and you create a new door type........so no difference there. (Though it seems strange how does the contractor know where to place which door?)

I guess you would need to use labels (or what ever it's called in Revit, I'm still only a beginner) for this instead and through a schedule access/sort and edit) this information. ie. some kind of passive information connected to each individual door...... but then the use of groups/symbols seems hopeless.

Edited by Vincent C
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If we take your example above: you have 100 rooms and they are basically the same with a few exceptions, I suggest you create symbols with the different variations and edit those as necessary, if this leads to a large variety of symbols the need for symbols seems unnecessary to start with. Do you follow? If it is the doors that would create the large number of different variations I suggest creating symbols without the walls carrying the different doors.....

Assuming there are no variations how would you go about scheduling the doors?

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Well I've had little experience with this in VWs but at present I guess I would create a special DL with a long wall and insert all door types (be it symbols native or WinDoor) side by side and use this to create live elevation and plan SLVPs + create a schedule with the necessary information but that excludes these 'extra' doors from the project.

Edited by Vincent C
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I create library of symbols so give some thought on how you want to group them and what data you want to extract. Also I dont let VW generate my Reports/schedule.I have my own Databases linked to Spreadsheets (10 years old)... saved in templates.Unfortunately there is no automated way of doing it as there is in revit...but I have greater control/flexibility in VW

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Also I dont let VW generate my Reports/schedule.I have my own Databases linked to Spreadsheets (10 years old)... saved in templates.Unfortunately there is no automated way of doing it as there is in revit...but I have greater control/flexibility in VW

How do you go about extracting the information to an external database?

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I prefer symbols I have loaded a lot of data into them.

VW Databases-> Filtered Criterias-> Databaseheaders-> Spreadsheets-> Place on Drawings...Its old and not pretty,but still works...but it definity needs tidying up if I find time using ODBC?

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If they're exactly like symbols in VW then how do they allow for variations between doors? Can you have a different door size in one room for instance? Or does that change all of them?

As Vincent mentioned, a door family can be created with many instances (types or sizes). You can select different profiles for the architraves, jambs, frambs etc, all contollable within the family.

Vincent is correct in regards to creating groups, although you can create a group within a group (i.e. different furniture configurations). Say you have two different furniture configurations and want to change one to the other. The process is simply to select the group you want to change and change it via the Type Selector (a drop down list of available groups that are within, or loaded into the project). So whilst you still need to create a separate group if you have a student apartment with a different door size, the process to change and or edit seems to be more intuitive. Also, coupled with the fact that doors can contain multiple parameters etc managing this workflow is relatively easy IMO. And best of all, it's handled all within Revit i.e. doesn't rely on third party developers (for windows and doors at least)

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Assuming there are no variations how would you go about scheduling the doors?

VW can find all different doors. You have the options to let VW look in DLVP. So even if you draw it once and 'copy' it by placing DLVP, VW think they are different or the same depending on the setting you choose.

And I still think that letting every door have a different number when they are actually the same is wrong. We give numbers to doors depending on the difference between them. So for your rooms, the doors that are the same will have the same number and you only need to draw it once that way. When making a spreadsheet with this info, VW will find all doors and you can sum the numbers so that you only have one line per type of door and get it's info. I think you are trying to make it more difficult than it can be. Although I know, and I think you are right, you are pointing out things that isn't possible that should be.

Edited by DWorks
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It seems to me that door labeling/scheduling solves two separate questions.

- it identifies the door for supply & installation.

- it identifies the doorway for other pre & post construction purposes (escape planning, security network, maintenance orders etc.)

The practice of individually numbering each door and window incrementally stems from the days of hand drafting. While I tend to agree that in a cad environment identical elements be labelled identically the purpose of labeling will be served in part only by using that approach.

It is possible to use a distinguishing parameter eg. the room/space names to preserve traceability of each instance. However this approach breaks down when a room has multiple doors of the same type.

So, I feel the best solution is a door/window id tool that doesn't exist yet, which lists both a Door Type & Instance Reference (perhaps automatically pulling from the space name & story, wall name etc.).

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And I still think that letting every door have a different number when they are actually the same is wrong. .... I think you are trying to make it more difficult than it can be.

What you're describing is the Type identification, which is fine. However, when you're speaking to a builder, supplier, client, etc. you need to be able to identify parts of building quickly and easily. This includes labelling all windows and doors with a unique identifying code, which is very much normal drafting practice.

Our door numbers, for instance, typically look like this: D01-A

D01 = unique ID

A = Type

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You could also use a symbol and put a text in it for the door label. Then make a record and link this text to a record field. You can then enter a door number that's unique for every room.

The problem will then be for the scheduling. If you have only one door to the rooms, you can do it by searching for the symbols and get the info out of the record. I know it's not the perfect bim way and a little bit unlogical, but it's doable. When you can have more than one door, it becomes problematic.

What we do sometimes to solve issues like this is:

* We use symbols through the first stages of the process.

* When the rooms are becomming final (no more or minor changes), we explode the symbols and have everything unique.

* Then you can do the scheduling like you want.

Another option I can think of is drawing the outer walls as seperate walls (outside wall with the windows and inside wall with the doors to the hall). Then use symbols or DLVP for the inner things of the room. This is another way I use much just because windows and doors on such room aren't always at the same place.

I would appriciate that you share how you have done it. I always find this interesting.

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What we do sometimes to solve issues like this is:

* We use symbols through the first stages of the process.

* When the rooms are becomming final (no more or minor changes), we explode the symbols and have everything unique.

* Then you can do the scheduling like you want.

This is where I'm heading to I think.

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