Tape Measure Tool

[Bruce Kieffer]

Please give me an instance where I would want to use layer plane with the tape measure tool while in front or right view? It does not default to screen plane and I don't know why. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how front view is a 3d view even though all I see is 2d.

[Kizza]

Personally, I don't see much use for the screen plane at all.

What I mean is, the front, left, right views etc are 2D representations of a 3D object (assuming you're working in 3D). Delete a portion of the model (in a 3D view) and in the front view it will be gone. So layer plane is appropriate.

Working planes is the other type I use a lot of. Automatic working planes I haven't figured out yet.

The way I get my head around it is to picture the 3D model inside a clear perspex cube. What you see at each face of the cube is the layer plane. Whats on the screen plane is in front of your eyes, regardless of which face of the cube you are looking at.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kizza

[Pat Stanford]

Try thinking about it this way.

EVERYTHING in VW is 3D except those items with a special appearence in Top/Plan (hybrid objects).

Top/Plan is 2D because is shown this special view.

Front is a 3D view because it is not Top/Plan.

There are NO special views other than Top/Plan. There is not view called Front/Elevation. You do not get a different view of any objects.

How is VW supposed to know that what it is displaying is an absolute square on elevation?

"Front" equates to a view looking "North", right? What if you had drawn the model correctly, but the front was 1 degree off? The Front view would no longer be an "Elevation" would it?

The tape measure defaults to Layer Plane because it can not know (or at least does not know in the current VW) that what you are about is parallel to the screen.

HTH.

[bcd]

Lets say you wanted to measure the length of a wall in Front View that wasn't // to the x-axis.

Screen Plane will give you the length projected to the x-z plane

Layer Plane will give you the true length

[Kizza]

Got it, thanks.

[Kevin McAllister]

The problem is that screen plane currently has better snapping. Snapping in 3D has improved a lot in VW 2012, but its not perfect yet. Once that gets sorted out things will be easier. I still use screen plane a lot for guide lines to make 3D objects.

The OIP also needs improvements for 3D (true positions). As an example you can't easily set the centre of a 3D object to 0,0 in top view unless you group it first. Once grouped, you can set its position in the OIP.

It sounds like the tape measure tool is still stuck between worlds.

Kevin

[Kizza]

EVERYTHING in VW is 3D except those items with a special appearence in Top/Plan (hybrid objects).

Top/Plan is 2D because is shown this special view.

Front is a 3D view because it is not Top/Plan.

VW uses basic orthographic projection for it's front,side,top and plan views. If you view each of the layer planes as an orthographic projection then it starts to make sense.

Where I can see it starting to confuse is when the drafter has a strictly line and arc drawing mentality. There can be no differentiation between layer and screen plane then because it's all on the "one" sheet.

[Kizza]

Point is though, screen plane has no relevance to the actual model, layer plane IS the nodel.

And another thing:

I actually prefer VW's naming to Revit's naming of views (i.e. top, left, right vs North, South, East)

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kizza

[Bruce Kieffer]

Pat,

Your explanation is very helpful. I guess my problem is I'm old school and I learned to draw front, side, top, and then make my perceptive view from those. I just seem to spend so much time trying to do something in VW only to find the problem is the plane is set wrong. Obviously I need to watch it all the time.

[Bruce Kieffer]

I was just looking on the VSS portal for info on screen plane, layer plane, working plane mode, and active layer plane mode. I see nothing there. Does anyone know a link to some info about all of that?

[bc]

Try thinking about it this way.

"Front" equates to a view looking "North", right? What if you had drawn the model correctly, but the front was 1 degree off? The Front view would no longer be an "Elevation" would it?

I think it WOULD continue to be an elevation, as would left side, right side and back.

Perhaps this comment needs rewording?

If one had a simple cube rotated slightly, front view would show three vertical lines (Hidden Line) and an unrotated cube would only show two. Both are elevations drawn correctly. You just can't measure off the rotated cube correctly along the X.

Isn't this correct?

[mike m oz]

Fundamentals PDF Manual:

- Vectorworks Modeling Environment: pp 207-209

- Using Working Planes: pp 593-605

KnowledgeBase Video: Working with Screen and Layer Planes:

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/854/Working+with+Screen+and+Layer+Planes

[Kevin McAllister]

I agree. I think it would still be an elevation.

Its somewhat subjective. As an example, if you drew a car in Vectorworks facing forward when you choose Front view it would be a true front elevation of the car. If you then rotated the car 45 degrees and chose Front view it would be a front elevation of the model space or scene, but no longer a front elevation of the car.

To complicate things further, Vectorworks 3D space is a sort of cheat anyway. Since it doesn't incorporate perspective in the working view like other programs, all lines are parallel as you rotate the model adding to the confusion. Using the example above with the car positioned at 45 degrees and knowing the Front view doesn't include perspective, I agree with Bruce's observation that Front view is not a 3D view but actually a 2D projection.

Kevin

[Kizza]

But you can adjust your position in relation to the cube so that you are perpendicular to it, or you could rotate the cube so that it is perpendicular to you.

I dont see what use elevations would to a contractor if they where not drawn perpendicular to the building alignment i.e. front of the building.

Would you not rotate your site so that it aligns with the front view (or north if working in the "other" software)

[bc]

Would you not rotate your site so that it aligns with the front view (or north if working in the "other" software)

Not necessarily. I just got off a job where the structure ran East/West then jogged 30? to the NW. All elevations would "deviate" from the "norm". No amount of rotation would help.

Thankful for saved views and working planes.

In my distant past, elevation drawings were not just front or side views. They were implemented to establish vertical relationships (or their elevations) between structural elements (e.g. fin floor - finish floor, plate hts etc). In most of my jobs contractors can extrapolate wall areas and rake lengths by a combination of views or sections.

Edited January 21, 2012 by bc

[Bruce Kieffer]

Fundamentals PDF Manual:

- Vectorworks Modeling Environment: pp 207-209

- Using Working Planes: pp 593-605

KnowledgeBase Video: Working with Screen and Layer Planes:

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/854/Working+with+Screen+and+Layer+Planes

Thanks for this info Mike. I will share it with our VWX user group this coming Tuesday.

[Bruce Kieffer]

I agree with Bruce's observation that Front view is not a 3D view but actually a 2D projection.

Kevin

This is a problem with our puny little human brains! We only see what we see, VW knows all the other spacial locations of objects even though it shows us what looks like a 2D projection.

I did a simple VW experiment after contemplating the suggestions of rotated objects:

I started in right iso, drew a 2" x 4" rectangle, pulled it to a 1" tall cube. Switched to top/plan and rotated 20 degrees, then switched to front view wireframe. Odd looking, but accurate if you think about it and switch back and forth from right iso to front view a few times to make your brain understand what you see. Then I grabbed the tape measure tool and watched what plane it defaulted to. Layer plane. So I know I'm looking at a severely foreshortened 4" side on the left, and I measure it, and that's what it tells me. Then I move to the next point rightward, and it says 2". Correct too, but not what my brain is telling me. The shorter looking distance is 4", and the longer looking distance is 2"! This seems like a helpful exercise to explain what happens to 3D objects in front view.

[Bruce Kieffer]

I made a movie. Take a look.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5106796/tapetool.mp4

[bc]

Yes thanks for that Bruce...and even though VW "knows all the other spatial locations" I sometimes wish it could be made to forget. Such as in Hidden line renders. If I convert a HL Render to lines I get a trillion lines if it's a house. Why can't we be able to specify that we want to convert to ONLY visible lines? Anyway, not trying to hijack the thread.

[bcd]

Personally, I prefer the tape measure tool to have the ability to measure in 3d.

For instances where projected 2d measurements are needed I'd typically place a dimension on a sheet layer viewport - or for temporary measurements place a ScreenPlane dimension in the Design Layer and then delete it.

[Bruce Kieffer]

I've been getting inquiries regarding my tool pallets at the lower right of my screen in the movie I posted. I created those using Quickeys (program) made by Startly. FYI, Quickeys is not Lion compatible yet. And I used iShowU to do the screen capture movie.

[Benson Shaw]

This is a wish and a comment. The tape measure tool could be developed to work like the eyedropper tool:

Default=2d readout

Press n' hold option key = 3d readout with a color change in the readout.

Toggle default in the mode bar.

Would that help?

-B

[Bruce Kieffer]

This is a wish and a comment. The tape measure tool could be developed to work like the eyedropper tool:

Default=2d readout

Press n' hold option key = 3d readout with a color change in the readout.

Toggle default in the mode bar.

Would that help?

-B

That's a great idea. I will add it to the wish list.

[bcd]

and the ability to copy the output (unless it's already possible?)

[bc]

"and the ability to copy the output (unless it's already possible?"

Yes I have also needed this as well. If we could tab into the

data pane....

Or can we?