Help with VW vs. ACAD!! Please :)

[Mark McCay-Moran]

I'm doing some serious soul searching here, looking for advice.

Long time user (MiniCad+ 3.1, yeah that's since about 1989!) but economy has slammed my business and as a result haven't upgraded since VWA/RW 2008. Also haven't upgraded my computers, which is beginning to cause problems. I'm a comitted Mac guy.

The cost of BOTH a VW upgrade plus a decent computer to run it is prohibitive to me right now.

The twist: after years of avoiding ACAD like the plague and telling anybody who would listen that AutoDesk made an overpriced, unituitive product (that forced professionals to use it because it had become the "default" program in the industry), I'm now looking to use it myself!

Why you ask? Because I was given a copy free of charge from a client who's a VP at Autodesk. $5000 retail! Granted, it's not ACad Architect or Revit but...

1) It would allow me to buy a new computer with my limited funds desparately needed on many fronts including but not limited to CAD.

And, 2) when looking for freelance work in architecture (or even a 9-5 job) I'm constantly reminded of the ACAD dominance in the field.

I've read a bit about the ACAD for Mac shortcomings, and I know folks here are generally VW disciples (as am I) but I'm hoping for some unbiased help in weighing the factors. Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for slogging through this long post!

[Kizza]

Well, the fact you've been given an AutoCad for Mac licence basically answers your own question doesn't it?

You could:

1) Stick with ACad and with your limited funds upgrade your PC

2) Sell the ACad licence and upgrade your VW 2008 to 2012 (you have missed out on a lot of VW's recent development if you currently use 2008)

3) Go back to hand drawing

I have formed the view, that if you run CAD on a mac, you inherently give up some of the ability to collaborate effectively with other consultants in the windows world.

If you are a mac guy, you only really have two options - Archicad and Vectorworks. (I haven't included Autocad for Mac because in it's present form it is a general cad app and not aligned towards architecture, from what I understand i.e. Autocad Architecture not available on mac)

Archicad's interface for mac is appalling, although a closer competitor to Revit than VW.

If Revit came out in a mac version then it would be goodnight nurse for VW.

BTW, I've used Autocad and I never have liked it.

Download VW 2012 and try it out.

[djb]

I'm surprised the Autodesk person gave you the software. Must be they don't consider Mac a viable platform and he's unloading it.

Autocad is OK but the cost is way too much. The Arch industry use's it only because they once upon a time got trapped in their world and it costs way too much to get out. Once you go down that rabbit hole it's hard to climb out.

If you are worried about knowing the software to make yourself marketable to firms that use it them play around with it but I would stick with what you know, upgrade, it's a lot better now, and there are a lot of firms using it because as a business decision it makes sense, more bag for your buck.

As for collaboration with firms who have Acad, export to dxf/dwg works fine or the IFC route through Solibre works well too for clash detection. Don't let a lazy engineering draftsman say you have to have Acad, you don't.

[Mark McCay-Moran]

3) Go back to hand drawing...

Had to chuckle at this, yes, I'm old enough to have started out hand drafting. Interestingly, the only part of my business that it thriving right now is hand drawn renderings! My clients are mostly other architects who can't/don't hand illustrate that are tired of the "look" of computer renderings. Full-circle.

I'm surprised the Autodesk person gave you the software. Must be they don't consider Mac a viable platform and he's unloading it.

I think its more like they haven't seen a lot of mac-heads jumping on the wagon, and are willing to give away some goods in order to gain exposure. Presumably, once I'm down the rabbit hole...

...play around with it but I would stick with what you know, upgrade, it's a lot better now, and there are a lot of firms using it because as a business decision it makes sense, more bag for your buck.

Herein lies my problem: either route requires a new computer to run new apps. Also, its my feeling the new upgrades are always claiming "better," not always coming through. I have tested '09 and '10 (actually used '09 pretty extensively at another office that I freelanced for)and was not overly impressed. Not the quantum jumps in workflow or tools as in previous upgrades with a lot of improvement taking place "under the hood." 2011 and 2012 require too much horsepower to adequately test with current computers. Statistically I'm not sure VW has gained marketshare, but I may be wrong. Its cost has certainly grown compared to both Archicad and ACAD. (I paid about 1500.00 USD for VWA+RW plus 500.00 for addl seats (I had 5 at one point)less than 8 years ago--when ArchiCad was 3500.00 and ACAD was 8,000. Now same runs 2600.00 USD while Archicad is 4250.00 and ACAD/mac is 5000.00)

Don't let a lazy engineering draftsman say you have to have Acad, you don't.

Nope, never have, never will.And while I'm relatively happy with DWG translations, I don't like this "openDWG" game the the cad industry is forced to play. I also don't like making excuses for the translation issues that do come up and tap-dancing around ACAD users needs.

I'll need to look at what the ACAD licence is worth on the open market, that might play as a viable solution!

Thanks so much for the imput!

[Mark McCay-Moran]

Going by memory with current pricing. My bad. ACAD for Mac is 4999.00 USD, Archicad 15 is 4250.00, but VWA/RW is almost 2900.00. Ouch. an additional seat is 2400.00 USD. Whoa.

So in 8 years VWA/RW has gone up over 90%, ArchiCad up around 25% and ACAD down almost 45%.

I was quoted 950.00 to upgrade to subscription to VWA/RW 2011 from 2008. I'm a little scared now to call and find out what I'll have to put up for 2012. This will definately influence my decision, especially if I have to spend more on my software package than the computer to run it, which has never happened in the 14 years I've been in business for myself.

Going back to hand drawing sounds like less of a joke now.

[VincentCuclair]

Archicad's interface for mac is appalling, although a closer competitor to Revit than VW.

Sorry Kieron don't agree with you there.....at least not to the degree that it is not a very good alternative to Revit!

Mark, how much BIM do you need? If BIM is of little interest an alternative could be Draftsight and SketchUp, both free and Mac supported and probably no need for a hardware upgrade either. (At least till things pick up again and you can get VWs)(on the other hand if VWs 2008 doesn't do the trick then these probably won't either....)

Have you tried getting a discount from NVs for the newest version, perhaps they are willing to 'invest' in keeping you as a user

Edited January 10, 2012 by Vincent C

[Kizza]

Archicad's interface for mac is appalling, although a closer competitor to Revit than VW.

Sorry Kieron don't agree with you there.....at least not to the degree that it is not a very good alternative to Revit!

Not sure if my post was clear but I meant to say that Archicad's interface IMO is appaliing, but also in the same sentence I state Archicad IS a closer competitor to Revit than VW. My post was referring to the user interface only.

[VincentCuclair]

My post was referring to the user interface only.

I used ArchiCAD for the last 4 years of which the last 2 on Mac (parallel to VWs) but it never struck me being bad, that's why your experience surprises me, sure nothing compares to VWs but it wasn't bad?!

Edited January 10, 2012 by Vincent C

[Kizza]

The interface is very intimidating for potentially new users - see attached screenshot.

But as with this type of thing, it's subjective to the user. I gave up on learning Archicad but found VW much more friendlier to use.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kizza

[VincentCuclair]

Ah, but what interface isn't these days (except for SketchUp )

[Dieter @ DWorks]

The interface of Archicad is ugly. It isn't a happy working envirement and that's a factor that counts when you want to be good and productive working.

That's the reason why I like Vectorworks, apart from other reasons..

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Don't get me wrong on this, but a windows pc with the same specs of a mac pc is much cheaper. So if you really need the money, I would suggest buying a windows pc. If you love and want to use apple products, you just know you'll have to pay for it.

PS: I have nothing against apple products!

[VincentCuclair]

but a windows pc with the same specs of a mac pc is much cheaper.

True, but not if you count the numbers of hours spent on general it-support over a longer period of time, especially when it comes to high demands on hardware and graphics symbiosis. (I say this out of experience (12 yrs PC 3 yrs Mac) not in reverence of, the late, Steve Jobs and Co.)

Edited January 10, 2012 by Vincent C

[Bryan G.]

I agree with Vincent. My Mac Pro is a 2007 model and the only issue I have had was a bad hard drive this year. no virus, no major breakdowns. as far as that goes at a measly $400.00 per year of IT support that is $2000.00 more (now which is cheaper)

dont get me wrong there are great PC's out there. but for out of the box ease and runability a Mac is just unbeatable.

Now if you do your own IT forget what I said.

[Bryan G.]

Mark, check into service select. this should keep upgrades manageable

[IanH]

I agree with Vincent. My Mac Pro is a 2007 model and the only issue I have had was a bad hard drive this year. no virus, no major breakdowns. as far as that goes at a measly $400.00 per year of IT support that is $2000.00 more (now which is cheaper)

dont get me wrong there are great PC's out there. but for out of the box ease and runability a Mac is just unbeatable.

Now if you do your own IT forget what I said.

I understand your argument and am not disputing your point of view, but just want to know how you know that you have not got a virus? What antivirus software are you running?

I just bought a Mac and don't run any AV on it which I don't feel comfortable about. But people told me, Macs don't get Virus' so you don't need AV which I don't buy as I could write a 'virus' for a mac so I am sure determined criminals could too. But it is nice not to have the overhead of AV software if it truly is not needed.

[Mark McCay-Moran]

So I guess one burning question is... Is VWA 90% better than is was in 2008? As I stated earlier, there are always improvements to features, but is it that dramatically different, and if so, will 20years of MC/VW use not be of any value?

[Dieter @ DWorks]

but a windows pc with the same specs of a mac pc is much cheaper.

True, but not if you count the numbers of hours spent on general it-support over a longer period of time, especially when it comes to high demands on hardware and graphics symbiosis. (I say this out of experience (12 yrs PC 3 yrs Mac) not in reverence of, the late, Steve Jobs and Co.)

What hours? I have had only 1 problem in the last 10 years with my pc. And for the hours spend on installing sofware etc... these are the same for windows as for mac. But I must say that those that have pc problems that I know, have a pc from a vendor which is preinstalled with thousands of software that you don't need. I always suggest a clean pc that you put together. You'll have the least problems and you will only have the programs that you really need.

What I do agree on is that for HOME users, mac is great out of the box. But I thought this topic was about WORK users? Most of the time, work users also have some sort of server and a bunch of other stuff that needs to be there. I really don't think that those things are out of the box on a mac. And I must say that the last couple of years, windows is becomming more and more user freindly in that manner that you really don't need to know the stuff behind it.

[Ozzie]

Been running Windows puters since W95 and a couple of years ago due to opinion on this board and others nearly came over to the dark side ? glad I did not as W7 came along

I use two Windows 7 puters all day my Asus laptop and my desktop; both home grouped and I flog them both

Trick is with Windows - - my policy anyway ? buy the fastest machine you can afford with QUALITY parts and......

But I must say that those that have pc problems that I know, have a pc from a vendor which is preinstalled with thousands of software that you don't need. I always suggest a clean pc that you put together. You'll have the least problems and you will only have the programs that you really need.

Was reading this thread yesterday ? post #164868

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=164916#Post164916

Option 1 fits better into my budget at just under $4k but Option 2 is not out of the question at $6.4k.

and I thought gee ? my desktop machine ? faultless and no problems at all for over two years and the same with my laptop ? wonder how much to get a new desktop now - probably about $2000.00 without a monitor

What would I get if I spent 2500.00 maybe 3000.00

I admit I do all of my own IT and can build computers ? it is not rocket science and I do not think there is anyone on this planet who could convince me to buy a Mac at the mo

Wonder what Windows 8 will bring

I will be in trouble for this no doubt but I see it this way

Some drive Audis others maybe a BMW ? I am into my second Subaru Forester and love them ? my partner has an Impreza ? so we love Subarus

Some people love Macs, good on them if they do and there is nothing at all wrong with that

This is a little slap stick but has some valid points

[Kizza]

If you have sensible email handling policies, avoid dodgy sites like the plague and are conscious of basic security measures then a Windows PC should give you very little trouble.

Macs are less prone to viruses at the moment but that could all change rather quickly.

What I do like macs for:

their asthetics

they are quiet (at least the iMac is anyway)

PC makers are now (finally) addressing these two shortcomings which should result in better quality products. What is interesting is that Apple has been the driving force behind this change.

[Mark McCay-Moran]

Mark, check into service select. this should keep upgrades manageable

I will, thanks for that.

Amusing to see where this thread has gone, didn't mean to start a Mac vs. Wnds thing. FYI I will stick with Mac for numerous reasons, not least of which are: continuity btwn home/office/music studio, ease of use (kids included), coordination with other apple products (iPhone, iPods, iPad) and apps, and...being a designer, quality of product and design.

That said...

So I guess one burning question is... Is VWA 90% better than is was in 2008? As I stated earlier, there are always improvements to features, but is it that dramatically different, and if so, will 20years of MC/VW use not be of any value?

Couple of items that would be truly useful if anybody could comment:

Will vwa/rw run on Lion if I ditch the upgrade and get a new computer for now?

For me VW has always been a program of "workarounds" especially in 3d. Are new wall tools, Dr/wnd objects, workflow really better? What about live sections? I know that's relative, but please give me your take.

Some previous pet peeves that I'm hoping have been addressed--use of polygon by lasso in VPs (for profiling elevations), hatching objects in 3d, cantankerous notes library, sectional control (visual), stability, file size.

Thoughts about AutoCad for Mac? Has anybody used? Weak? I'd rather be moving toward Revit for Mac if it was available.

[VincentCuclair]

What hours? I have had only 1 problem in the last 10 years with my pc.

No crashes, no installing drivers for every piece of external hardware installed, no anti-virus updates, no wifi/3G/network installation problems etc. I find that hard to believe.....

What did your set up cost?

But I must say that those that have pc problems that I know, have a pc from a vendor which is preinstalled with thousands of software that you don't need. I always suggest a clean pc that you put together. You'll have the least problems and you will only have the programs that you really need.

This is what you get from Mac too so that is what I compare with.

And I must say that the last couple of years, windows is becomming more and more user freindly in that manner that you really don't need to know the stuff behind it.

I should certainly hope so because there really need to be some other good alternatives to Mac......I want to have some choice!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Vincent C

[Dieter @ DWorks]

What hours? I have had only 1 problem in the last 10 years with my pc.

No crashes, no installing drivers for every piece of external hardware installed, no anti-virus updates, no wifi/3G/network installation problems etc. I find that hard to believe.....

What did your set up cost?

But I must say that those that have pc problems that I know, have a pc from a vendor which is preinstalled with thousands of software that you don't need. I always suggest a clean pc that you put together. You'll have the least problems and you will only have the programs that you really need.

This is what you get from Mac too so that is what I compare with.

And I must say that the last couple of years, windows is becomming more and more user freindly in that manner that you really don't need to know the stuff behind it.

I should certainly hope so because there really need to be some other good alternatives to Mac......I want to have some choice!

* No crashes, just for that one problem.

* Installing drivers has always been automaticly done by windows when plugin a new device. Never had to install it manually.

* Anti-virus I had to install the first time, but it automaticly updates. I don't need to worry about that. And when it's time to pay for another year, I got a message long enough before it needs te be done.

* Networks are automaticly found. The only thing I have to do ONCE for a wifi network is giving the network key.

Windows is really getting better. In the past the above was problematic sometimes, but that's the past. Maybe it happens from now to then, but not that I see these days.

My setup costed ?3.000, but that was more than 3 years ago. And it is still one of the best you can get. I could have bought a cheaper one, but I just wanted a really good one for my work and home combined because I also am a gamer and I wanted it to last very long.

You compare a mac with those pre-installed vendor pc's. But you must not forget that with a mac, everything can be integrated very nicely because they do it all. Those vendors make programs above windows and force some things that shouldn't be forced. That's asking for problems. So I really do not think you can compare them.

And for the alternative: I really have high hopes for windows 8. It really seems that they will have the same user friendly interface, maybe better (but that we will need to find out), and a more consistant whole. I have my doubts about it too, but we will see later this year how it will shape up.

[VincentCuclair]

* No crashes, just for that one problem.

* Installing drivers has always been automaticly done by windows when plugin a new device. Never had to install it manually.

* Anti-virus I had to install the first time, but it automaticly updates. I don't need to worry about that. And when it's time to pay for another year, I got a message long enough before it needs te be done.

* Networks are automaticly found. The only thing I have to do ONCE for a wifi network is giving the network key.

Perhaps this is true for Windows 7 but not for any versions before that, i have always used the newest/most expensive setups available at the time from Dell/HP at the companies I've worked and have never had a setup that worked without these issues.......your case must be exceptional.

(I bought a budget (?300) Acer Aspire in 2006 to run VWs 11,12,2008 and I think 2009 on and that was the most problem free PC I've ever had. (It did have the usual Windows problems as stated above but nothing bigger.) It's slow now but I still use it as my main home computer.)

My setup costed ?3.000, but that was more than 3 years ago.

That's basically the price for a well specced Mac.

I don't care about the Mac vs PC 'lobbyists' these are simply my own experiences and observations, which I value most and act accordingly to that is why I am on a Mac and for me it is without doubt the best decision I have made.

Working as a consultant for many different companies at many different locations with many different IT solutions, it is a joy to be able to fire up my MacBook Pro and just start working, regardless of what network or other setup is involved.....it simply just works each time........hopefully PCs/Windows will soon offer the same kind of quality!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Vincent C

[Mark McCay-Moran]

Thanks for that guys

Yes, windows is getting better and better. At some point it may even be so "mac-like" that I consider using it. However...

Amusing to see where this thread has gone, didn't mean to start a Mac vs. Wnds thing. FYI I will stick with Mac for numerous reasons, not least of which are: continuity btwn home/office/music studio, ease of use (kids included), coordination with other apple products (iPhone, iPods, iPad) and apps, and...being a designer, quality of product and design.

That said...

So I guess one burning question is... Is VWA 90% better than is was in 2008? As I stated earlier, there are always improvements to features, but is it that dramatically different, and if so, will 20years of MC/VW use not be of any value?

Couple of items that would be truly useful if anybody could comment:

Will vwa/rw run on Lion if I ditch the upgrade and get a new computer for now?

For me VW has always been a program of "workarounds" especially in 3d. Are new wall tools, Dr/wnd objects, workflow really better? What about live sections? I know that's relative, but please give me your take.

Some previous pet peeves that I'm hoping have been addressed--use of polygon by lasso in VPs (for profiling elevations), hatching objects in 3d, cantankerous notes library, sectional control (visual), stability, file size.

Thoughts about AutoCad for Mac? Has anybody used? Weak? I'd rather be moving toward Revit for Mac if it was available.

I'm not looking to switch to ArchiCad (I've actually been down that road already). I don't want to switch to AutoCad, although its a decision I'm in the process of evaluating.

what I want to do is upgrade VW, but won't be able to run it on my current computers.

Anybody have some insight into some of the items mentioned above? Particularly the status of VW in its current form and usability of ACAD for Mac 2012?

Thanks again, mmm