3D VW objects. Where are you?

[WayneG]

Having scoured the web for objects (mainly cars/plants/trees) there seems to be very little out there that can be used in VectorWorks. Objects galore for 3d Studio Max, Cinema 4D et al. Maybe I purchased the wrong software?? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[propstuff]

quote:

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Originally posted by WayneG:

Maybe I purchased the wrong software??

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Hmmm,

well Wayne, if your definition of the "right" software is predicated on the amount of other peoples work that they are prepared to give you for free.................. (?)

apart from places like VectorDepot, you can always import DXFs, and there are plenty of those around.

oh, and thats not counting the numerous objects that come with the programme.

[ 06-15-2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: propstuff ]

[alanmac]

Maybe you should have purchased Coreldraw?

It really depends what your priorities are, and that should have been thought through before buying any software. Sorry if it sounds short but to slag off a product because you can't find loads of free stuff gets that sort of response from professional users.

Indeed there are many models, free or to buy using 3D max. Much more than VW, but I've used many a dxf based file from the net to populate my designs, computers, chairs etc.

With some time spent on searching and on the basis of dxf you'll find plenty more.

You may have to do some work on them to render correctly but it will be quicker, maybe not as satisfying, than creating them yourself.

[WayneG]

Did I mention "FREE STUFF"?? I'm not slagging off the software, just the amount of QUALITY models there are on the web, free or not. I am new to 3D. VW was recommended to me, as I now need to learn to produce House/Architectural "illustrations" to replace my watercolour work. I am very happay with that side of VW. Brickwork, roads, paths etc work very well. I could do with car models (for example) WHICH I WOULD PAY FOR to drop into my work. I agree there are numerous objects with the program, but most are not of sufficient quality to be able to use Trees & Vehicles in particular.

[alanmac]

Wayne

Stand corrected and I apologise for any offence. You did not mention free stuff and my only excuse is it was late at night, deadlines, deadlines, and a sado who is a big VW fan.

So how can I help. Well, as mentioned before there are loads of models free and otherwise in dxf format on the web and I've had success in downloading these and using.

Sure like anything else their is good and bad, some very good and some very very bad!!

But I've found some create big files, which is in itself not a problem but when you use lots of them in a scene it can slow VW right down.

What render program are you using and I'm curious to know in regard to your work, I've looked at your site, why you decided on VW, great though it is given what you want to do.

As regards models do a search on Google saying something like 3D models, CAD Models, even add Free or Sites into it. You'll find loads and can waste at least a whole day just looking through and downloading stuff ;~)

Organic stuff, like trees, in CAD is always created by what I'd call slight of hand. You'd never model a tree in VW or other CAD programs but introduce it as an image, or create a "basic" tree like 3D shape and then map the image on it to appear more lifelike. This goes for other programs, except dedicated software like Xfrog made to create this kind of thing.

Alan

[ 06-16-2005, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

[propstuff]

My apologies also Wayne,

I am also guilty of jumping to false conclusions.

N.

[WayneG]

OK. Thanks guys. Apologies accepted!

VW was recommended by my computer man who made a few calls to find out what would be best for me. So I believed him. I'm using RenderWorks also, which I also find pretty good. I've tinkered with image-mapping, so I can see those benefits. Maybe I could take photos of my car in loads of different positions, and choose one to image-map?

Whatever I choose to do, there seems to be a hell of a learning curve, especially when I'm new to CAD and 3D, but I shall persevere. My business depends on it.

[islandmon]

It's always best to take the easiest road first ... that is 'google it'. The benefit is that you get to see what others are doing and you get to learn some new skills. The downside is that inevitably most of the examples require specific apps or the most desireable ones are too expensive for the project at hand. After a day or two of this escapade, I usually settle back into my normal routine. Normally, I get to use only a small percentage of the great stuff I downloaded. But ... hey .. its the journey , right.

Don't get me started on the downloading of entire catalogs of 'future' image props and backgrounds.

[alanmac]

Wayne

Seeing what you've done in the past i'd say Vectorworks was a good choice as regards Techincal Illustration even if it goes 90% of the way to what you want to achieve, but I honestly don't think it's the only program you'll need.

One size does not fit all in my experience. The big advantage I find is I can model accurately and easily in Vectorworks. There are modellers that do things such as organic shapes etc but these modellers rarely work in the concept of scale other than relative to the program itself.

Cinema 4D comes to mind. It has much greater capabilities in many ways to Vectorworks but its aimed at a different market and end product, although with all things the lines of distinction get blurred and overlap as to what is used for what.

Most modellers have animation included into their toolset capabilities.

If you are happy with what you are producing from Vectorworks and Renderworks and it meets your clients requirements great, but looking at your previous work I be tempted to say you need other software in addition to this to get where you are using hand drawn skills and beyond.

I know this is something you may not want to hear after spending your money on VW and trying to climb its learning curve but I'm only thinking in respect of what I see on your web site.

I don't think Vectorworks was a big mistake, and is certainly great software, it's just given what I've seen and what you want to do I would have gone a slightly different route.

Remember most of the software makers supply free demo versions of their software programs, and even quite usable versions as freebies on computer magazine covers of older versions to get you using their stuff.

What ever you use, best of luck with it, I was in a similiar situation with my design and visualization work some years ago, go computerised or become a dinosaur.

At least you have the artistic skills, background knowledge, experience and eye for the work, it's just understanding the new tools you use to achieve it.

All the best

Alan

[ 06-16-2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

[grant_PD]

I'd check out artlantis as well, which claims to have extensive librarys of "shaders" and "billboards" which are sort of weird terms for what you're looking for.

the other route is to start your own clip art collection, of trees and cars that are at the right perspective, and create image props out of them to drop into your renderings. As an illustrator you probably have a lot of research clip art laying around, that just needs to get digitized.

[WayneG]

OK guys. Thanks for your suggestions. Spent a few days on the web and found some decent reference I could use for image props and background material. I would love to find a decent 3d car model though, even to buy. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

But anyway, you may be interested in my 1st CG house illustration (just follow the CG link): http://www.topdraw-uk.co.uk/

The house isn't that interesting, but good enough for the experience. I'm quite pleased with it, but would very much appreciate some constructive criticism from anyone with greater knowledge of the subject than I.

And by the way, because it took me so long to produce, and because my agent's 'replacement artist' failed the test, I've lost my House Illustration contract. Ho Hum. Anyone gissa job??!

Wayne.

[propstuff]

Hi Wayne,

if you go to

www.Vectordepot.com

and choose the Symbols section you will find a thing called "Skydome" by Dave Donley (of NNA) which is a hemisphere of directional lights which mimics natural daylight.

Using it will substantialy add to your render times but produce a satisfying improvement in "reality".

You will have to tweak the lighting values for best results.

cheers.

N.

[alanmac]

Hi Wayne

Sorry to hear you didn't get on to far with the client on illustration. I can see where propstuff is coming from recommending the Skydome plug in.

I've no experience of rendering in plain Vectorworks or its Renderworks so can't advise you on settings but from an illustration point of view its the lighting that seems the real problem.

The whole image appears dark and the shadows way to dark with hard edges. This is not a failing on your skills as an illustrator just your lack of experience in using the programs light settings to get the desired result.

It may well be that for the results you need cannot be obtained from Renderworks, I don't know.

What may be the answer is to get an illustration already created to the level you want to achieve and show this to Renderworks users with the question can it be done in RW.

I'm using another program called Artlantis 4.5 for my rendering, which although I understand gives superior results to Renderworks I still find lacking in its lighting.

With that in mind I purchased Cinema 4D but am still not profiecient enough in it to replace Artlantis in my workflow.

Abvent who make Artlantis themselves realise this and have released Artlantis R.

That's what I meant by my post about your choice.

I'll post some links which may help and would perhaps show the level of achievement needed to get work in architectural illustration. It's not what I do by the way, but look to these for inspiration and a kick up the backside to try harder myself.

Regards

Alan

[ 07-02-2005, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

[alanmac]

Wayne

Something for you to look at

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/galleryList.asp

http://www.abvent.com/community/galeries/

http://www.cgtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=121

http://www.maxon.net/index_e.html

Not all are about architectural illustration but I'm sure that's not just what you want to achieve from your move to computer based graphics.

Good luck. Don't give up, you have the creative skills, you just need to learn the new tools to achieve the work you are capable of.

The only thing that worries me is that you may not have all the new tools you need to do this in VW and Renderworks.

Alan

[ 07-02-2005, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

[David Ormsby]

Wayne

Have a look at www.turbosquid.com

Their tech support guys will usually convert anything they have over to another format - dwg for instance. Just drop them a line first to check.

I bought a Hummer from them and the detail was amazing.

[Johnm]

I've been following this string from the beginning and from an unpromising start it's developed in an interesting way. Many thanks to alanmac and David O for posting the gallery sites which were very inspiring , particularly Nicolas Rivera's work on the Abvent site .

WayneG - you must be impressed with the generosity of contributors to this forum , I am.

Jonas Mac

[WayneG]

Absolutely jonas mac. I have found using the forums are often a better way to solve a problem than using VW Help. My thanks to all contributors.

I have used the Skydome in the aforementioned House Illustration, and it certainy has lightened the whole works, as you'd expect really. Now it looks very flat, with no contrast between each wall, and the shadows have all but disappeared. I think the Skydome has improved most of the colours in the illustration, except for the house itself! I haven't tweaked the Skydome's settings yet, so I hope to achieve a desireable end product with it. Maybe just deleting some of the light sources will improve things?

I like shadows in my illustrations. Don't they have hard edges?

Finally: I've looked at alot of CG work over the last few days, and there is certainly some superb stuff being done. The contract that I want back, however, does not lend itself to be THAT creative. I would love to produce different angles, sharper perspectives, more dramatic lighting effects etc, but this is the standard view they want for all their work, which is probably better for me as I won't have to learn too much too quickly.

[propstuff]

Hi again Wayne,

turn down the ambient light to off, or virtually nothing, turn down the Skydome to a lower value (in the Object Info Pallette) and turn up the directional light you placed as the sun.

That should give you the "Radiosity" of the Skydome plus the shadows from the Sun.

Note you might want to experiment with Shadow Mapped shadows instead of Ray Traced . (sometimes better, some times worse)

cheers,

N.

[alanmac]

Hope this may also help.It's not about Renderworks but applies to any lighting set up.

http://www.andrew-whitehurst.net/3point.html

As regards shadows, whilst its not so much the darkness I think its the fact they have a hard edge to all of them.

With regard to the flat textures, is there any sort of bump map settings in Renderworks you can use to make them appear more 3D.

The road for example looks too flat. Maybe do some slightly curved surface model in this area to show the camber roads have. I know you have the eye for this because of the work in your portfolio, it's just sussing out your "computer tools" to achieve the desired effect.

It's going to be a mixture of modelling detail to a certain level, or point, followed by careful lighting and texture application to get the right results.

Sometimes it's just a simple thing missing like interesting or indeed any reflection in the window glass that spoils an image, and that one thing can suddenly lift the whole picture.

One problem I found is that whilst the render program works to simulate light it does not act truely as light does. There is a program just out that is supposed to work this way called Maxwell but the render times are really long in it.

Also I've struggled with some lightingset ups, which whilst trying to cure one area has made matters worse elsewhere.

Now to save time and problems I use post work, in say Photoshop, to correct areas I'm not happy with, without trying to get "everything" right in the render program.

I think you'll find rarely do you get a render that is "finished" straight out of the render program, and some post work in a graphics program really lifts an image.

Here's a car site although you may need to get the files changed to something VW will accept imported into it.

http://www.sugar3d.com

Regards

Alan

[alanmac]

This is another site I've found very good.

It's aimed at Autocad but I've downloaded dxf stuff and it's been fine, and on a tight deadline much quicker even with some work needed after importing into VW.

I see they have cars. I used a lot of furniture till I started modelling my own.

http://www.accustudio.com

enjoy

Alan

[propstuff]

Here's another one,

Mostly pay, some free, mostly DXF (at least the last time I looked which was a while ago)

http://www.3dcafe.com/

cheers.

[WayneG]

Thanks guys. There's so much stuff to look at I don't get time to do the work!

[alanmac]

You'll be telling us you'll want to sleep at the end of the day next ;~)

For me it brings home how lucky we are in our student days to have the chance to learn and study without the added pressure of keeping an existing workflow, deadlines and income in place.

But like so many that knowledge only comes with hindsight. Trying to instill that in my children I hear echoes of voices sadly long gone and wish I could tell them how right they were.

Alan

[propstuff]

oop!

here's another,

don't know how detailed these are, but thet're mostly free.

http://www.cben.net

N

[Lynda]

Hi Wayne, I note that you're from the Uk. Many of the VW symbols are US biased style wise. However, the Autocad /Studio Viz ones from RPC are very good for people and vehicles. Their sponsors are www.cgarchitect.com but they can also be found at archvision.com.

Also, some good trees are available to buy from Chief symbols (I found them through Google) Very good maples etc. but they slow the re-draw down drastically. Some work needed on re-colouring bur worth it.

Also, try looking at Piranesi software, it's being promoted in the UK at present. I was very impressed.

Lynda who is also learning!