How flexible Vectorworks 3D should be....

[Kevin McAllister]

There are some amazing things in this video of the beta version of FormZ 7. I love that they were fearless enough to redesign their interface, clearly something Nemetzchek could learn from.

All of the parametrics seem so easily adjustable in real time and in 3D. Imagine a workflow where modelling was this simple and paired with Vectorworks sheet layers and presentation capabilities.

Kevin

http://www.vectorworking.com/video/discover-formz-7-part-1-parametric-modeling-in-a-modern-interface

[Kevin McAllister]

Some more examples in this second video -

http://www.vectorworking.com/video/discover-formz-7-part-2-visualization-rendering-fabrication-and

including unfolding, dynamic sections, etc.

As a long time Vectorworks user (since Minicad 5) I am starting to feel like we are being left behind as all these other products leap frog ahead in usability. Ironically I found these FormZ videos posted on the Vectorworking page. From them it looks as though it actually could become a Vectorworks competitor at a $1200 price point....

Kevin

[Chris D]

Very nice stuff. We wouldn't make much use of the freeform modelling but why oh why can't architectural 3D modelling in VW be done in a shaded view, with gradients and shadows and transparent glass, and viewed with dynamic clipping sections...and why can't the tools do everything fast and lag free like that?

[Jershaun]

+1

Software like this shows how far behind vw is. Very few programs model in wireframe anymore. I'm all for a live interactive interface with clipping planes & live tool feedback.

[AndiACD]

Kevin, i downloaded the Beta trial yesterday but i'm struggling to get it to accept my registration.

As it's a Beta there are a few rough edges and not being able to register means a few niggles, i can't check any of the 3 training vids that come with it, But, it's quick, a little more intuitive in many aspects than VW, and even not having a clue as to what all the tools do, the 3D modelling tools all seem to do what it says on the tin, once you start testing them.

And do it Successfully!

Including several EAP type offerings that all seem to work as you'd expect.

You can Push/Pull to your hearts content . . . . AND . . . . . dictate the size by entering dims on the fly. Lofts, Sweeps, Extrudes, Adds/Subtracts and any choice of 3D Solids get good results with no complaints that "The Object you are attempting to create can not be computed"!

Impressive!

One gripe is that it's own version of the OIP that displays Coordinates, BB Dimensions and Rotation is only visible with certain tools which rather defeats the object of it being there at all. And without a functional OIP it looses most of the "Stars" i gains for all the good points it deserves for what is does do very well.

i'm also intending to try out a few other options like SpaceClaim, ViaCAD, Shark and a few others, so once i have been able see how that all fair, i'll post my views.

Edited December 2, 2011 by AndiACD

[Chris D]

And without a functional OIP it looses most of the "Stars"

Indeed. It doesn't look any good as an architectural tool. Apart from Gehry who has the luxury of a clean flat site where they can freeform model? First thing we do are the practical things like set up storey heights, building height limits etc. The OIP is great for having the info where it needs to be.

[AndiACD]

That's right Chris and i don't need any of that Archie spec, but having used the OIP for so long, poor as the VW iteration is, now i find i can't proceed at half the speed without it.

AND Thanx to RJMullin for taking the trouble to make Reshaper which gives choice of using the missing parts from the OIP Puzzle . . . . . .

[Kevin McAllister]

Ultimately my point is Nemetzchek needs to be fearless in jettisoning what doesn't work, fixing the user interface and getting current. I too have been using the beta of FormZ and its so easy to figure out and quite powerful. Its not quite ready for prime time and as far as I can tell it lacks many of the presentation/workflow management tools needed to use it for a full project end to end.

If you look at the price point difference, Vectorworks should be all that at the basic level plus so much more. The parasolid engine must be at least as powerful as the 3D engine in FormZ, mustn't it?

The challenge in my business is that every project has different needs. I need to model architectural stuff (venues and realistic set pieces), 12m high draped cloth mountains that I can unfold, and the head of a sphinx that I can produce contours for. But I also need the sheet and presentation tools to create detailed drawing sets.

Kevin

[Christiaan]

So so depressing to watch videos like this.

[bc]

Ever so.

[CipesDesign]

Why depressing? Why not exciting? Possibilities in life are infinite and only contained by the limits of our dreams and desires. Why not dream big?

[Benson Shaw]

The demo videos show a really fast, interactive process, but are we comparing the same things? VW has those elaborate classing and the object data systems with size, location, attributes, records, group/symbol status, external refs all of which can be retrieved, sorted and manipulated in worksheets and ported out in many forms.

Maybe that is what keeps VW from a fast, interactive 3d workflow? Each mod, move or view change has to calculate and reorient the entire data load for every object?

Is FormZ a modeler, or does it also have comprehensive record keeping appropriate for concept to buildout project docs?

-B

[Jershaun]

Why depressing? Why not exciting? Possibilities in life are infinite and only contained by the limits of our dreams and desires. Why not dream big?

It depressing because other software with the parasolid engine is like this already. Vw has been with the parasolid engine for 4 releases now and no where close to that level of interface. So I doubt it will ever be like that in the next 4 releases. And even if it get's to that level in 4 years there will be a better and newer technology where everybody else would have moved onto and vw would still be behind.

The demo videos show a really fast, interactive process, but are we comparing the same things? VW has those elaborate classing and the object data systems with size, location, attributes, records, group/symbol status, external refs all of which can be retrieved, sorted and manipulated in worksheets and ported out in many forms.

Maybe that is what keeps VW from a fast, interactive 3d workflow? Each mod, move or view change has to calculate and reorient the entire data load for every object?

Is FormZ a modeler, or does it also have comprehensive record keeping appropriate for concept to buildout project docs?

-B

As I said before, very few software (BIM or general modellers like FormZ) work in an old fashioned way like vw. All software (BIM and general modellers) are going this route if not already. The interface shouldn't affect record keeping. If you look at software like SpaceClaim and SolidWorks, they also have "mechanical" record keeping going on in the background but their interface is fast and interactive.

[Kevin McAllister]

I'm not sure that I understand how those things figure into this equation. They should not get in the way of an efficient working environment. If the programming is such that they do, it should be re-written in a modern way. People are interacting with their 3D models on iPads and mobile phones, computing power shouldn't be the issue.

I've only scratched the surface of FormZ so I can't tell you its full capabilities (I've noted its shortcoming in presentation above). It does have layers, attributes, accurate size, location, components (symbols), scenes (save views), and an animation timeline. It also has a history of how an object is created. It seems to me in some ways its actually tracking more information about its objects. I also discovered many of these features are available in its little brother Bonzai, which is under $500. It couldn't replace Vectorworks in my workflow but has caused me to want more for my money.

FormZ is certainly not alone (Spaceclaim and others have already been mentioned). Compare something like Cinema 4D. The information and parameters it tracks about objects are many, yet modelling is fast and efficient there (though its polygon modelling, not solids modelling like FormZ).

My guess is the parasolid engine is capable but much of the legacy code between it and the end user is holding things back.

This is a great discussion to have. Ultimately the wish is for Vectorworks to catch up and become competitive.

Architecture is only one of many industries that Vectorworks is used in. The base program needs to be competitive in a more broad based way.

Kevin

Edited December 3, 2011 by Kevin McAllister

[Dieter @ DWorks]

My guess is the parasolid engine is capable but much of the legacy code between it and the end user is holding things back.

That's what I think too, and they should stop this. there are things in VW that are there because once a version long ago needed it. Why not getting rid of it? They changed the render engine and I had several textures that I coudn't use anymore. I had to remake them and change all of my files. I was not happy with it, but in the end it's for the better. On the other hand, they always say that they need to keep certain tings for legacy, but they didn't with the rendering? Just move forward and delete the old things that VW doesn't need anymore. Give the users a proper warning if things will really mess up because of this so that they know that opening old drawings in the new version will result in some things being missing or broken.

I heard some years ago that VW was being rewritten, but is this really the case? Is it still being rewritten? Or are we already working on the rewritten one? If so, NVW did a bad job.

On the other hand, you can notice the little differences that makes each version really better, but it's not enough. I also got tired of the half-baked things in it. Ok, we got wall component joins, but they only work 'correctly' in 2D. The 3D components doesn't follow. If they only tried for once to implement a feature to it's fullest before releasing it. Make sure that the feature works in all aspects of VW, 2D, 3D, records, ... and that they are complete. There is no tool or object that feels complete. There is always something missing. I will not speak about the slab bounding walls problems and that there is no way to get it manually....

On reporting bugs, I get responses that my 'bug' isn't the way the programmers inteded it to work. I really don't understand why they don't think through all the situations and options that need to be there in each feature. They seem not to think about what when... . As a programmer myself, I really can't understand this.

I really hope they solve their problems. And I think it should be better to just release a version of VW with nothing new in it, just reworked to make it better and more complete.

[AndiACD]

FormZ is certainly not alone (Spaceclaim and others have already been mentioned). Compare something like Cinema 4D. The information and parameters it tracks about objects are many, yet modelling is fast and efficient there (though its polygon modelling, not solids modelling like FormZ).

Exactly!

My guess is the parasolid engine is capable but much of the legacy code between it and the end user is holding things back.

Something that has been pointed out on this Forum time and again

This is a great discussion to have. Ultimately the wish is for Vectorworks to catch up and become competitive.

Definitely!

Architecture is only one of many industries that Vectorworks is used in. The base program needs to be competitive in a more broad based way.

Simplify so one tool does what you expect, completely, not 3 or 4 doing the same job and those that do remain to do the job perfectly without complaining "i can't manage that request!"

I really hope they solve their problems. And I think it should be better to just release a version of VW with nothing new in it, just reworked to make it better and more complete.

Me too! Clear out the Kr*p, Streamline it and rebuild without it "tripping over it's own bootlaces". Just try to keep it recognisable as the VW we know and "Love to Hate".

[Christiaan]

... there are things in VW that are there because once a version long ago needed it. Why not getting rid of it? They changed the render engine and I had several textures that I coudn't use anymore. I had to remake them and change all of my files. I was not happy with it, but in the end it's for the better. On the other hand, they always say that they need to keep certain tings for legacy, but they didn't with the rendering? Just move forward and delete the old things that VW doesn't need anymore. Give the users a proper warning if things will really mess up because of this so that they know that opening old drawings in the new version will result in some things being missing or broken.

Totally agree.

[Christiaan]

Why depressing? Why not exciting? Possibilities in life are infinite and only contained by the limits of our dreams and desires. Why not dream big?

Because I use VW!!

I think a lot of people need to take their rose tinted glasses off and realise how badly things have gone.

[AndiACD]

I think a lot of people need to take their rose tinted glasses off and realise how badly things have gone.

Welcome to the "Bootlace Effect!"