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TomMason

controversial, but: NO 3D AT ALL IN VECTORWORKS!

Question

This might be slightly controversial, but I'm suggesting that ALL 3D elements in Vectorworks are removed and it concentrates on being an extremely efficient drafting tool.

I've recently been using a lot of Revit, which at first was difficult coming from VW2008 standard but once immersed into this environment it is a hugely useful system. Now, I've recently dipped back into using VW2011 Architect (I'm an Architect based in the UK) From my memories of VW being a smooth, easy to use 2D drafting tool it has become something (IMHO) stepping well beyond it's current limitations. Confusing screen planes/layer planes, tools not working smoothly, graphics jumping all over the place etc etc

Now to turn this into something positive - what I think VW should be concentrating on is combining the GUI and clarity of tools of sketchup, the DTP abilities of InDesign and the Graphic attributes of Illustrator to form a super slick, easy to use, one stop shop for Designers and Architects. There would be a HUGE market for a piece of software like this instead of VW trying to chase a product niche (REVIT) that it is not suited for.

What do you think?

Cheers!

Tom

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Hi Mike,

You don't understand :grin: . I print my drawings in colour therefore I want my infill colours (NOT pen colour) to be different to each part of the window.

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@Christiaan So what do you use VW for then? Architecture/Civils? I assume you produce rendered 3D? Is not Sketchup and Radiance a better tool for this?

Architecture. We do produce rendered 3D visualisations but we use Artlantis to do the rendering.

What we want VW to become good at is the ability to produce all of our documentation (digital, paper, 2D, 3D, schedules) from a single source of information: the model. 2D CAD just doesn't cut the mustard in this regard.

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@DWorks - OK - sketchup doesn't make detailed 3D models/solids - but having used 3Dsmax and a glut of other proper 3D modelling programmes (inc Revit) VW is by far not the easiest/best and it is so not easier to model in VW than SU (which was my point)

@Bryan G hahaha - no I don't get commission from AutoDesk for Revit promotion, just for myself, at this time, it seems to me to be the future....it effectively acts as a database of all drawings/issue sheet/3D modelling and great rendering/good (not very good) 2D stuff/door schedules etc etc - it defo has limitations, but it seems to me to be the best holistic solution on the market at the mo.

Also we have been employed on several jobs because of our Revit exp. (this obviously isn't necessarily a good thing as it is just using what larger contractors/development companies seem to be requesting)

@Vincent C why not use InDesign/Illustrator? because like I said they could not schedule doors/windows etc etc symbols/blocks etc etc do I really need to tell you why I wouldn't use Illustrator to produce architectural drawings?

A point I take is flexibility....VW does give anyone the ability to use it in a huge number of different ways and what I'm suggesting is more of a niche for what I want to use it for - more artistic/graphic orientated drawing production. I suppose also that I would prefer to work with a programme that doesn't allow multiple options for doing stuff - there is one way and you don't have to spend a while thinking about how you will set up your folder structure/your class-layer drawing standards/class naming etc etc. This flexibility can also be a bad thing because without being fascist in the way in which you use VW in your office it can encourage everyone to have a different drawing style/order/method that isn't necessarily very easy to pick up someone else's project...

I'm glad people have started actually thinking/responding to my suggestion because @bcd was just f**king rude laughing....

@Jershaun - nice to hear I'm not pissing in the wind here :)

Synopsis - I don't think VW should change to what I'm suggesting, as I can see it has a loyal community of followers/users, but if anyone knows a good programmer out there who could knock up what I'm indicating - I really believe there is a niche market for this...

Cheers guys :)

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Back to the top Tom.

"This might be slightly controversial, but I'm suggesting that ALL 3D elements in Vectorworks are removed and it concentrates on being an extremely efficient drafting tool. "

This is a laugh!

I'm not trying to offend you - but ripping 3d out of the software is hardly a way to improve it. For many of us 3d is essential.

Edited by bcd

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.....I'm suggesting that ALL 3D elements in Vectorworks are removed .........

@Vincent C .........because like I said they could not schedule doors/windows etc etc .......

Tom, no 3D = no door/window schedules?

The thing is, remove any major part from VWs and you get one of the other apps.

Remove 3D modeling/BIM you get a bad version of Illustrator or Draftsight

Remove 3D modeling you get a bad version of Revit/ArchiCAD

Remove PIOs/BIM you get a bad version of Sketch-up

Why not just streamline/stabilize VWs the way it is (going), and get the best crossover product on the market regardless. (Exactly what most small architecture/design firms need!)

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Tom, whilst i DO agree that VW is neither "Chalk or Cheese"(not really good at 2D or 3D) my preference would be for it to become a totally "3D Tool" because as it stands, the Basic 3D Tools that should work perfectly, Just Don't!

Ground Up Rebuild, Anyone?? :)!!!

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@bcd - but you could have credited with me with the response you just made...check my synopsis - the response from everyone suggests that VW has a position in current CAD options - maybe my suggestion is more that there should be a programme for the more graphically minded architects out there.....which maybe isn't relevant on a VW improvements board : ) My Bad.

@Vincent C ....you can have door and window schedules without 3D!!! you would just associate a 2D elevation with the 2D symbol?!!? and you could attach BIM like info to this - essentially what we are all producing is database information. What did everyone work on before CAD existed? Drawing boards - did buildings get built? Yes? People still produce hand drawn information which is used on modern building sites (it happens in our office) My posit was that maybe what is needed out there is a really good digital drawing board (which IMHO VW used to be)

@AndiACD good point - I think this is where some of my frustration lies: that commands don't seem to work as easily as they once used to, it's buggy. Not good when you're under pressure and trying to produce high quality work...

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As I appreciate Tom's intrest to want to improve or change VW for what he feels is better. But I am still confused as to why if Revit is a profit center for you as you have let us know why are you concerned with VW? Years ago I had PC and Dynascape. It, after a while did not fit my business requirements, so out it went and we changed to VW. If there is a day when VW no longer fits the bill, then I will change again. It can be frustrating to have to do this and I hope that VW will give me everything I want in the future. However you cant steer a train off its tracks to pick up one person. This is just simple business. I do wish that VW would offer more and every new release I eagerly wait to see the NEW in it. Sometimes I get what I wanted other times not. But last time I checked VW was not writing code on my behalf. I do enjoy a brisk debate on well anything, but as Mike asked show us some samples of what you are looking for alway good to see what we cant do. You never know, maybe somebody has a solution. :)

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@Vincent C ....you can have door and window schedules without 3D!!! you would just associate a 2D elevation with the 2D symbol?!!? and you could attach BIM like info to this - essentially what we are all producing is database information.

OK but that already exists in VWs and all other CAD apps?! Just because it can do more doesn't mean you have to use it all!? Don't like the OIPs don't us em, don't like Planes, don't us em, want to work in 2D, do it?

Just remove all toolbars and other 3D functionality from your workspace in VWs Fundamentals, Layers can have 0 height = no z height problems, don't touch the number pad = no Screen/Layer plane problems and Voila! You have what your looking for!

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However you cant steer a train off its tracks to pick up one person.

:grin:

Or even say for example 1000 when there are 450000 on board......

Edited by Vincent C

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Vincent has a point. If you don't want to use a feature don't. I do very detailed 2D work in color with no 3D all the time and find VW to be fantastic. I also have a large software library in that I have Illustrator, I quite often use VW instead (depending on what I am doing) because I find it better and faster. Maybe it is because I use VW more frequently but hey its just that.

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Jershaun you can apply 'your colours' to the individual parts of windows.
  • Architect 2012 has the ability to separately Class all the individual parts of the Windows and Doors.
  • Windoor (which comes with Architect Australia) has always had this ability.

I'm talking about 2D Plan representations.

One of the reasons why NV or any other developer of pio's should more implement by class settings. Just let the user set the class for each of the components and draw them in that class. It's easy, fast, better controllable and many more....

I don't see why seperate settings, or no settings at all, of attributes still exists while you can beautifully do all of this with classes. So many advantages, ....

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Model Solid? Ok this is meant to be light hearted so don't take this the wrong way. But for visualization for clients or myself last I checked we don't live in a wireframe world.

Gotta run now talk to you later......... oops ran into that wall there.

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Model Solid? Ok this is meant to be light hearted so don't take this the wrong way. But for visualization for clients or myself last I checked we don't live in a wireframe world.

Gotta run now talk to you later......... oops ran into that wall there.

:)

My point.

Why we use CAD isn't it? :)

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It is always the case to want more from something. I want VW to do MUCH more than what it does now. I want better 2D and 3D and better reporting and functions. Hell, I would love it to read my mind (ok thats a stretch). but this board is here to suggest changes, and yes this is what Tom has done but 1) I do not think VW will reverse where they are heading and 2) rome wasn't built in a day. Lets face it with the new Service select VW should be taking in more cash, and investing in more code or the likes. Look at Microsoft, they have more money than God and they still don't have it right after all this time. (just a jab to you PC folk out there). Change will happen in VW and so far I believe it is for the better. Time will tell.

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@Bryan G - great sarcasm, but not much content... SU = no solid modelling yet you can use boolean operations and get great rendering when using Radiance or suchlike - we're not in the business of re-creating the existing world here - we're in the business of re-presenting the real world - think theatre stage....or read a bit of Jon Ronson.

With regards Revit - our practice uses both VW and Revit - so I jump between them quite often and therefore I compare the operation of both. The reason I go on about it? if you read my previous posts I have outlined already that is the only comprehensive tool on the market at the mo that does pretty much everything without having to spend half your day figuring out the best way to do it (unless that's your job of course) which in my mind clears up the hours for what i'm in the business for = designing things.

In the design world surely all we want to do is design - in an ideal world we wouldn't be using computers to do this (well I wouldn't anyway) I'd be using pens and paper and a computer would be working out all the tedious crap like running databases, classifying info etc etc the crucial point is that CAD is a means to an end not an end in itself.

Your point about stripping all the 3D stuff out?

a) do you use a multitool to cut bread? or do you use a bread knife?

b) there are hundreds of young, brilliant designers coming out of schools at the moment and for them to be able to use a product as quickly as possible and to it's fullest extent - IMHO - is an enormous advantage. I know it's possible to do a great deal in VW with many years experience and learning it's idiosyncrasies - but I want to save the bits of my brain for retaining design/artistic detail and not I.T. info..

BTW I've already conceded that changing VW is (after all the sentiment in this thread) a non-starter - I still underline that there is a gap in the market for the software I've described...

I think I may have stepped into a technicians forum and not an architectural one :)

Edited by TomMason

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Again Tom I do understand what you are saying, however I find that VW is a perfect design tool for me. I hand worked all my designs for many years and now find it better to conceptualize in VW.

As for your two points above.

a) I buy pre sliced (modern advancements are so Coool)

b) My design partner (who is also an adjunct professor at the local University) feels that VW is a wonderfully easy yet powerful tool for brilliant designers coming out of schools (Im paraphrasing here).

And as for the forum not being an architectural one, I have seen many of the users on this forums work and would like to add, this shows the forums depth. Great designers with a very technical knowledge. after all isn't that what you were trying to say when you wanted a 2D program. Design and technical as that is what builds buildings. Otherwise we could all loose the CAD and just use cocktail napkins.

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Tom,

Thanks for enjoying the sarcasm, I know some don't. Always in good fun!

And yes I know I do like to here other points of view, it is how we grow as a society.

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unless of course your a politician, mostly there opinions are rubbish.

Thats for a different rant board though! Sorry a little off track.

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Definitely not a politician, thankfully.

a) ok - what about a penknife to open a can of beans?

b) you must admit - it's not obvious where all the controls are in VW as it has slowly evolved over time...

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As for content in this thread.

I utilize VW from the beginning with Artistic RW for my conceptuals. This way I can have multiple concept sketches and variations even overlay them because of layers if I choose. I have not used an eraser for years. As for the LS plans I can move from concept to prelim easily all in one package. Then I can produce 2D final in color or B&W along with 2D construct docs and details. Then if a client chooses, or if I would like to emphasize a portion or the entire design in 3D (this helps many clients with visualizing the site or design) I can, all in one program.

I do understand your wanting just straight forward drafting capabilities. But I am still confused as VW definitely has these abilities with the added bonus of generating 3D.

Isn't that what it's all about multiple design capabilities which fit multiple users needs.

I'l bet that someone using 2D only wishes often they had a 3D capable program.

And for your comment on the majority of firms use Revit, well a while back the majority of computer users were all PC, with a small little Apple Co. in existence. Now Apple is growing exponentially and PC/ Windows sales have stagnated or declined. Revit/ AD is a massive giant with, yes a very good product. so yes the mainstream, PC market grew to use AD products not only because they were good, but often out of default and size. I find it interesting that AD changed their tone from never Apple, to now Apple. VW had a commanding hold on the Apple CAD market (at least here in the US) and if they continually improve and grow they will continue to hold that lead. If they were to stay only a simple 2D program they would get swallowed up by AD or someone else.

Progress and change are difficult and sometimes not liked by some, but things will always progress and change. I believe for the better. And I can choose how I want to adapt and use what changes. VW is great at allowing me to do just that.

We'll theres my book for the day!

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