controversial, but: NO 3D AT ALL IN VECTORWORKS!

[TomMason]

This might be slightly controversial, but I'm suggesting that ALL 3D elements in Vectorworks are removed and it concentrates on being an extremely efficient drafting tool.

I've recently been using a lot of Revit, which at first was difficult coming from VW2008 standard but once immersed into this environment it is a hugely useful system. Now, I've recently dipped back into using VW2011 Architect (I'm an Architect based in the UK) From my memories of VW being a smooth, easy to use 2D drafting tool it has become something (IMHO) stepping well beyond it's current limitations. Confusing screen planes/layer planes, tools not working smoothly, graphics jumping all over the place etc etc

Now to turn this into something positive - what I think VW should be concentrating on is combining the GUI and clarity of tools of sketchup, the DTP abilities of InDesign and the Graphic attributes of Illustrator to form a super slick, easy to use, one stop shop for Designers and Architects. There would be a HUGE market for a piece of software like this instead of VW trying to chase a product niche (REVIT) that it is not suited for.

What do you think?

Cheers!

Tom

[TomMason]

Spaces are useless! I have just changed the graphic appearance of a space and the boundary changes!!!!! Aaaarrrgggghh!

[VincentCuclair]

Oh now that's an easy one to solve! I'm sure there are quite a few copies of MiniCAD 2 lying around that you can purchase!

Another great but contraversial idea would be to have all car engines removed from cars and have them be drawn by horses, that's much better for the environment!

[bcd]

I needed a good laugh. Thanks Tom!

[TomMason]

Thanks for your serious comment guys

Do you really think that VW performs what it sets out to do? Do you think it is actually a competitor to the likes of Revit?

If you do - I think you guys need to get out a bit more

[bcd]

Seriously funny Tom

[VincentCuclair]

:grin:

[Miguel Barrera]

If VW was not a better alternative to AC or MS, it would have been extinct by now. It reminds me of the mid 1990's when all you saw was wintel machines and then the media was predicting the fall of the Mac, although we, the users, knew all along the Mac was a better machine.

I can only assume that such absurd arguments come from misinformed individuals that do not know in depth the differences between and strenghts of each package. I am a Civil Engineer where VW is non-existing and the field is full of AC & MS users. Nonetheless, I use VW to its fullest and am able to produce better quality plans in a fraction of the time than my counterparts. To me it makes more sense to use the best tool for your needs than whatever everybody else is using just because you do not know any better.

[TomMason]

@miguel I think one of the other main arguments for using VW is it's cost - I've been using it now for 8 years quite happily after transferring from AC and it has, as you say been very effective at producing 2D drawings for a variety of projects from house extensions to ?6m+ schools here in the uk. If it wasn't as cheap and wasn't native to OSX then I think it's user base would jump ship.

What do you use VW for? 3D? BIM?

Have you ever used AC or MS or Revit?

My contention here is that having had a break of about 2 years - I have returned to a programme that IMHO no longer is as speedy and easy to use as it once was. This is probably a good percentage my rusty-ness, but surely it should be intuitive and obvious, especially with my fairly extensive experience? I jump back into Revit/Sketchup?AC with out a hitch.

Nemetschek seems to be moving it in a direction that I believe is a bad move (ie BIM) - where in the market is there a simple to use, intuitive 2D drafting programme that can produce DWGs/DXFs/PDFs and can be picked up by a graduate that hasn't used it ever before? Sketchup manages this, anyone can pick up sketchup and in minutes be producing solid looking 3D objects - All I'm saying is that instead of trying to do something that AutoDesk and others are doing very well - why not excel at what nobody else is doing? Intuitive 2D drafting; desk top publishing & ability to easily export for construction.

I have 5 years+ on AC; 2 years+ on MS; & 7 years+ on VW and 3 years+ on Revit.

Just sayin'

[Christiaan]

If VW became 2D only we'd stop using it. Simples.

Here's a simple 2D CAD app:

http://www.microspot.co.uk/products/macdraft/

[TomMason]

@Christiaan So what do you use VW for then? Architecture/Civils? I assume you produce rendered 3D? Is not Sketchup and Radiance a better tool for this?

The CAD App I'm looking for would be a lot more graphics orientated - think Adobe Illustrator/InDesign more than just basic CAD.

I'm currently doing a competition and if all my 2D work could be amalgamated (A1 presentation sheets - CAD/graphics/photos/text rich) and I could then use it for producing details/GAs at a later date - then Job done.

[bcd]

Unless I'm misreading you, you can do all this in VW, preferably in a Design Layer-Sheet Layer structure.

Are you seriously proposing jettisoning Vectorworks' entire 3d functionality so you can do page layouts?

[TomMason]

Have you tried doing anything raster based in VW? I'm on a:

iMac

Processor Name: Intel Core i7

Processor Speed: 2.93 GHz

Memory: 8 GB

...and it grinds like nobody's business with 5 x 1mb images on a single sheet...it's just not plausible. InDesign is fine with this amount of images.

Do you use the 3D function of VW? ...no one seems to want to answer my questions about what people actually use VW for!

I have only ever used it for 2D - I'd be happy to be proved wrong, and if people have experience of other CAD software (3D) and can give a balanced argument why VW really is superior to other 3D CAD software I would be really interested.....What are the bonuses of using VW over other CAD? I can't see any and I can see a niche for a CAD/DTP programme - no one else does it...

Maybe I've just walked into the house of VW and am blaspheming or something?!?!?

[TomMason]

...and I did say controversial ....

[VincentCuclair]

With 5 years on MS + 5 years ArchiCAD + 6 months Revit and ADT, and VWs since VW 11, VWs still tops the list and is as productive as the rest, though in slightly different ways. (note MS was where the others are now 8 years ago, however the learning curve was far too steep, every update was like learning a new program, effective/productive?)

I use all programs for the same type of projects and basic BIM

Edited September 20, 2011 by Vincent C

[Dieter @ DWorks]

@Christiaan So what do you use VW for then? Architecture/Civils? I assume you produce rendered 3D? Is not Sketchup and Radiance a better tool for this?

Don't make me laugh!!

I don't say Sketchup is bad, but VW is faaaaaar better in 3D modelling than Sketchup will ever be. It even doesn't have solids! It says it has them, but technically, it's just a group of faces, and that's not a solid.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Have you tried doing anything raster based in VW? I'm on a:

Do you use the 3D function of VW? ...no one seems to want to answer my questions about what people actually use VW for!

I have only ever used it for 2D - I'd be happy to be proved wrong, and if people have experience of other CAD software (3D) and can give a balanced argument why VW really is superior to other 3D CAD software I would be really interested.....What are the bonuses of using VW over other CAD? I can't see any and I can see a niche for a CAD/DTP programme - no one else does it...

I use what VW was inteded too: BIM.

The bonuses? The flexibility you have in many ways. The posibility to extend and adapt the program to your needs, EASILY!

And I used others, but they never did give the flexibility VW gives me.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Nemetschek seems to be moving it in a direction that I believe is a bad move (ie BIM) - where in the market is there a simple to use, intuitive 2D drafting programme that can produce DWGs/DXFs/PDFs and can be picked up by a graduate that hasn't used it ever before? Sketchup manages this, anyone can pick up sketchup and in minutes be producing solid looking 3D objects - All I'm saying is that instead of trying to do something that AutoDesk and others are doing very well - why not excel at what nobody else is doing? Intuitive 2D drafting; desk top publishing & ability to easily export for construction.

I have 5 years+ on AC; 2 years+ on MS; & 7 years+ on VW and 3 years+ on Revit.

Just sayin'

It's not a bad move, you'll see over time.

And a program that you can use the moment you pick it up is not always good. You always need to learn a program to be good at it. This has always been the case, and will always will be.

Sketchup manages this, anyone can pick up sketchup and in minutes be producing solid looking 3D objects

Then tell me, can you do other things with your objects too? Can you use them to build further on them?

And if you didn't know already: VW have the same tools Sketchup has! You can also push/pull etc.... Only better.

[VincentCuclair]

This is always an interesting discussion, why would we want VWs to be like, Sketch-up, Illustrator etc. They already exist what's the point?

[Bryan G.]

Alright, controversial not really.

I find that your primary assumption is that you have all the facts and know what is best for everyone and VW. Also you assume that the populous of VW users are clueless of other CAD/ 3D options.

I am a Landscape Designer and did extensive research into options that were MAC based. After the dust settled, there were, Oh wait, only one legitimate option. Not to mention it was appropriately priced (Other options, though PC based were either the same price and limited on functionality, or 2-3 times the price).

As for the 3D, I originally bought VW for the 2D aspect and as of recent updated have moved to extensively designing in 3D for site analysis and visual rendering of projects. All in one great package!

Finally I understand you are asking a question and possibly with good intentions, but really, if you find something else to be better for your needs use it. I wont speak for anyone else but I have VW I like it, and overall I am satisfied. There will always be questions, issues or why does it not do what I want.

I have a question of my own for you. Do you get a kickback from Revit? Sounds like a sales pitch. And no, I do not work or get any thing from VW! though it would be nice (hint, hint)

[Jershaun]

I don't agree with Tom 100% and I use vw for 3D modelling all the time however Tom does have a point. NemV has lost the plot in the last couple of releases. They are moving in a direction that I'm not particularly comfortable with.

I moved to vw initially because of its ease of use, graphic abilities and customisability. As a person with an artistic flair and a person who started on the drawing board, I always wanted my drawings to look different to others. It is becoming more and more difficult to do this now because everything is becoming "hard-coded plug-ins" where the user has no control of the visual representation of the object. ONE example is I can't apply my unique colours to the window parts.

The "new" Story feature is just "Layer Grouping". With an effort to compete with Revit, the way NemV is implementing BIM tools is making the software less intuitive and less easy to use. (lot of settings/mouse clicks)

Other software has caught up in terms of graphic ability so vw does not have that advantage anymore.

NemV hasn't done anything in terms of moving customisability forward instead they're concentrating on rigid Plug-ins.

[mike m oz]

Jershaun you can apply 'your colours' to the individual parts of windows.

• Architect 2012 has the ability to separately Class all the individual parts of the Windows and Doors.
  
• Windoor (which comes with Architect Australia) has always had this ability.

[mike m oz]

You are also incorrect in your assertion that Vw lacks flexibility and the ability to have flair. You can model and draw almost anything you want in Vw and then create a Hybrid Symbol of it so you can have your desired appearance in both 2D and 3D (including doors and windows). That process is a little slower, so for many the PIOs are their preference.

[Jershaun]

Jershaun you can apply 'your colours' to the individual parts of windows.

• Architect 2012 has the ability to separately Class all the individual parts of the Windows and Doors.
  
• Windoor (which comes with Architect Australia) has always had this ability.

I'm talking about 2D Plan representations.

[Jershaun]

You are also incorrect in your assertion that Vw lacks flexibility and the ability to have flair. You can model and draw almost anything you want in Vw and then create a Hybrid Symbol of it so you can have your desired appearance in both 2D and 3D (including doors and windows). That process is a little slower, so for many the PIOs are their preference.

Yes that is true. What you talk about has always been around since minicad vw7/8 and still works the same way. That is why I say NemV hasn't done anything to take this forward. They are concentrating on rigid plug-ins where users have no control of 2D representations. It drives me crazy to have a programmer tell me how my drawings should look like.

I don't use window, door or windoor to model. I model all my own. Therefore I like to have automatic plan representions of models. It's double work to have to worry about 2D and 3D representations in hybrid symbols.

[mike m oz]

I'm talking about 2D Plan representations.

Architect 2012 Doors and Windows both have the ability to control the 2D linework. Windoor does as well (see prevoisly posted image).

Can you post an image showing some examples of the 2D representation you are after.