Non-doable wall joins.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

I make this thread because I was asked to post all wall joins that can't be made in VW so that they can try to incorporate them in the software and make it better. But if everyone encounters such wall joins, they can post it here so it's easy to find them.

And if you find solutions to them, you could also state them here so other users can do it too.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

This wall join can't be made. The thing is that a piece of the facade brick isn't there in real life.

It can be partially done in VW2012, but you still got the wall lines. If you work only in 2D, you can turn of the lines of the walls, but if you use your wall also in 3D, The lines will also be gone there. (This is one of the many reasons why wall components should take over their own class attributes in 3D).

Edited September 20, 2011 by DWorks

[VincentCuclair]

Dieter, you need to take a larger part of the drawing, it is hard to see what is what in the picture you posted.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

I got a wrong slab because of wall that's wider. See pic. It's hard to explain.

The wall above are just 3 walls, but the slab doesn't notice that the middel one is wider.

Also doesn't work in v2012

Edited September 21, 2011 by DWorks

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Can the topic title be changed in Wall/Slab/Storey problems?

[Dieter @ DWorks]

I can't form this slab between the walls:

Also doesn't work in v2012

Edited September 21, 2011 by DWorks

[Dieter @ DWorks]

When auto-updating the following space, it doesn't follow the walls:

Does work in v2012

Edited September 21, 2011 by DWorks

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Here is another wall join that gives problems:

The wall join can't be made, but you can draw it with multiple walls, but it will cause problems described in the file.

The solutions that VW should incorporate in short:

* Let the wall components take over their own line attributes, thickness and color!

* Let us have key elevations set to storeys without having to have a design layer attached to them.

* Let us bound wall components to key elevations.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Strange post thing.

Edited September 27, 2011 by DWorks

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Here is another L + T join (or Y join) that's not going like it should be:

Again with the solutions multiple times states in previous posts. We still have to use the workaround of using symbols to cut out wall components in 3D!

[Dieter @ DWorks]

The VW file for the two problems above.

[Chris D]

The wall join tool is gonna have to be pretty sophisticated to do these wall junctions and show them in both 2D and 3D how you want them. Not that that's impossible...

Is any CAD/BIM software that sophisticated? My experience of other platforms is too far behind me now to know the current state of affairs.

I do know from my experience of doing "wall patches" at these sort of junctions that even when VW is capable of doing a junction using components, it takes a large number of clicks with the component join tool...in a particular order that is a black art. What you're asking for is a whole lot more....you'd have to manually condition every component interface to tell the software how to connect....even the smartest software can't know what you're thinking.

It makes me wonder whether a whole new tool/paradigm is needed....sort of "Wall End Conditions" that are a series of preferences saved as a junction type somehow, that can then automate the actual wall joining process during drafting....by selecting your pre-saved conditions.

For intelligent wall joining, even the common junction parameters would be quite complex though, with walls being classified according to their function as external wall, party wall, partition etc, and ALSO that components know whether they are linings, cavities, structural, or thermal elements.

What you're asking for is less...just let us do component joins without limits...but you may find that even if this is delivered....the time taken to set up every junction means you may still want to use symbols...? (Our 2D and 3D drawings are completely separate in this office, done by different people even, so I can't speak for the benefits of automatic storey heights etc in practice.)

Just thinking aloud..

[Dieter @ DWorks]

The wall join tool is gonna have to be pretty sophisticated to do these wall junctions and show them in both 2D and 3D how you want them. Not that that's impossible...

Is any CAD/BIM software that sophisticated? My experience of other platforms is too far behind me now to know the current state of affairs.

I do know from my experience of doing "wall patches" at these sort of junctions that even when VW is capable of doing a junction using components, it takes a large number of clicks with the component join tool...in a particular order that is a black art. What you're asking for is a whole lot more....you'd have to manually condition every component interface to tell the software how to connect....even the smartest software can't know what you're thinking.

It makes me wonder whether a whole new tool/paradigm is needed....sort of "Wall End Conditions" that are a series of preferences saved as a junction type somehow, that can then automate the actual wall joining process during drafting....by selecting your pre-saved conditions.

For intelligent wall joining, even the common junction parameters would be quite complex though, with walls being classified according to their function as external wall, party wall, partition etc, and ALSO that components know whether they are linings, cavities, structural, or thermal elements.

What you're asking for is less...just let us do component joins without limits...but you may find that even if this is delivered....the time taken to set up every junction means you may still want to use symbols...? (Our 2D and 3D drawings are completely separate in this office, done by different people even, so I can't speak for the benefits of automatic storey heights etc in practice.)

Just thinking aloud..

I think you don't get my point here.

I don't want that much, I just want some basic things to be implemented to the walls that make soo much difference. Most of the time I can make the wall joins, but some basic things VW is missing makes them a little bit useless.

General wall related issues:

1) 3D components doesn't cut eachother out! If slabs can cut out walls, why can't other walls do that?

2) 3D components doesn't take over their own attributes, So what's the point of having classes then?

VW's automatic magic issues:

The things is that VW thinks that everything will always work and it depends too much on that. But VW doesn't have anything to back this up when it doesn't work!

For example:

1) You draw walls and they can be bounded to storeys so that they change their height dynamically!

2) You can bound slabs to walls, and they will be updated dynamically, they even cut out your walls!

3) You can bound spaces to walls, so that they can be updated with a button click!

4) The above points are really magical and, if they work, give you a lot of benefit when chanching thing, because it all changes with it.

BUT, what if something doesn't work in the chain? Then you do have to do everything manually and do a lot of work!

1) The walls won't be cut out, wich means you have to set the wall component heights manually in the wall itselfs

2) Because of 1), you can't use wall styles.

3) Because of 1), you have to redo each join when changing wall components offsets.

4) Walls can't always be joined program wise. It can look like they are joined, but they are not.

5) Because of 4), you can't bound slabs to it.

6) Because of 4), YOu can't bound spaces to it.

7) Because of 5), Your walls wont be cut out, back to 1) then.

So we need the control over things like wall components being bound to key elevations! and some basic things to just work like cutting out wall components from other walls.

[VincentCuclair]

Dieter just wondering but could you solve these problems in 2011?

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Dieter just wondering but could you solve these problems in 2011?

I always find some workarounds I use, but they are much more manual work and you have nothing of the automatic things. It's all doing manually.

The problems I describe and the workaround I state is for 2011, I also test those 'bugs' in the demo version of 2012 to see if they still exist befor posting here.

My main point is that the storeys and their small implementation of them are multiplying the work we need to do with those problems. IF it works, all is fine, but if it doesn't, we now have so much work, it's almost not doable.

Edited September 28, 2011 by DWorks

[Bart Rammeloo]

Is any CAD/BIM software that sophisticated? My experience of other platforms is too far behind me now to know the current state of affairs.

I don't find that relevant. If you provide a tool to draw walls and slabs in 2D / 3D, it should work in all cases. Yes, there will always be exceptions, but when you can only manage 90% of your daily routine with these automated tools, and you then start losing time trying to find workarounds, then you simply stop using these automated tools alltogether. And you start doing it the old fashioned way again, with separate 2D drawings and 3D models, because it appears faster.

The wall networks in VW just might have reached their limits, it might be time to start looking for a different paradigm.