Vectorworks 2012 pricing

[Christiaan]

Does anyone have v2012 pricing yet?

[Christiaan]

Just heard from our reseller that he won't have prices until October.

Which puts us in an annoying situation because we'll have computers running Mac OS Lion but only have licences for VW 2010, which isn't supported. We can't upgrade to v2011 so close to the release of v2012 because there's apparently no grace period this year (where we'd get v2012 free) and we don't want to upgrade to VSS because it's almost double the price. which we can't afford as we've just shelled out on new hardware.

[Chris D]

Surely they'll be selling it in 2 or 3 weeks, based on past form? September 14th release in the UK last year. They can't sell it if they don't announce the price..?

[Christiaan]

That's what we were banking on. Reseller just told me he was just guessing.

I don't see NV deviating from their recent release dates of mid sept.

[willofmaine]

I though VSS was less than the upgrade cost... am I missing something?...

[Christiaan]

Not for your first year as you have to pay for the upgrade of the software plus the subscription.

[Ozzie]

This is just a comment and I am not having a crack at anyone; so ?

I cannot believe the issues Mac users are having with VW and upgrading to Lion ? what a conundrum and therefore empathise with you ? bit of a ?Catch 22? really

I remember when I went from Vista to Windows 7 64 bit some time ago and was told I was on the bleeding edge. Ray Libby had an issue with his mouse and had to go back I think to 32 bit as a consequence

Seems to me in going to Lion also you will not be able to run previous versions of VW ? is that true?

Whilst probably no one can really be blamed ? is it Mac - is it NV?

Just as an experiment I used VW 2011 to open an old VW 12.5 file and voila it opened straight up on my W7 64 bit puter

Given you are a building design practice do you wonder if it is worth it?

What will be your workflow to say utilise files from VW 2009 or older into say 2012 once you are up and ?running? on Mac OS Lion?

[mar schrammeyer]

i seem to have no problem running vw2010 on lion, which i do to create my vr objects while continuing to work in 2011

[Christiaan]

Seems to me in going to Lion also you will not be able to run previous versions of VW ? is that true?

I'm not aware of any version of VW where this hasn't been the case, at least supported versions.

Whilst probably no one can really be blamed ? is it Mac - is it NV?

I don't know how it works on Windows but Apple has always been willing to deprecate old technology in Mac OS X and move forward. This has meant Mac OS X has got faster, smaller, more nimble and more robust with each release. I prefer it this way and find issues of backwards compatibility a necessary annoyance.

What I don't like is the habit of moving onto the next version without fixing known bugs in the older version. NV have done this a few times, but even here I tend to prefer that they concentrate on the next version.

[VectorGeek]

Just a hunch, but I would expect some significant price increases next release.

V-G

Architect, Tarot Card Reader

[billtheia]

Why do you say that?

[VectorGeek]

Why do you say that?

Not sure Bill (as I said...a hunch more than anything). I do wonder about the CAD market being pretty mature now, and the possible result being an increase to get VW catching up with its direct competitors' pricing. As VW users, we've been pretty fortunate to have paid very reasonable dollars for our main productivity tool. When I compare notes with my Archicad and Revit colleagues, they are always amazed at how little we pay to use software that allows us to document projects equal in size and scope to the ones they do.

The interesting question is what would happen if say, upgrades doubled, or new licenses went up significantly. What effect would that have? Our firm would likely decide to hold tight where we are and face a penalty when upgrading to the next version. With the 12-month release cycle, a year goes by pretty quickly.

V-G

[billtheia]

I hear you. I certainly think that NVW has made the subscription model inexpensive in an effort to get us all on board.

It seems to me, though, that if they get too much more expensive, that they will lose customers to ArchiCAD and Revit. I think that those products are more mature and complete. The fact that VW was "cheap" has allowed NVW to get away with buggy releases and incomplete tools.

[IanH]

In the UK, the most significant cost fluctuations are governed by the FX rates. So we get largely shielded from the true cost of VW.

For people working for companies, the cost of VW doesn't really affect them too much - they may not get to upgrade as often as they may like and may have to work around issues, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really affect their income.

But for the many people that pay for VW out of their own pocket, cost is a vital consideration in choosing what software they use. In the industry that I do a large part of my work for, even at current levels, for most the cost of VW is significant and any rise will result in lost sales. I now upgrade every other year, rather than yearly. I have heard of many people that have not upgraded in years or, heavens forbid, use educational copies.

Its a tricky one for NNA (or whoever they are now), but being a lower end product makes VW accessible to a larger user base. Some users may want NNA to go up market and make it more specialised to their own industry. Great if it is your industry and you are not putting your own hand in your pocket to pay.

I think the subscription model is a smart move for VW. It doesn't suit me but for VW and many users, it probably makes cash-flow more regular. I would not be surprised if VW moves away from the yearly release cycle. As far as income is concerned, with the subscription model, there is no longer any benefit in getting a new release out to generate income from the upgrade. And having less releases less results in more stable software.

[Christiaan]

There're reasons we pay less. If a price increase comes with a corresponding increase in building modelling automation and automated 2D output, then that's something I'll be able to justify.

If prices start to match ArchiCAD/Revit without corresponding feature parity I know where we'll be going. Price is one of the main factors for staying with VW at the moment.

[IanH]

Christiaan. Out of curiosity. When justifying an additional cost - is this your own money or someone else's? It's easy to justify spending someone else's money, less so when its your own and many more factors affect the justification.

"someone else" = your boss and all other VW users that won't benefit from your justification.

[Christiaan]

I'm talking about justifying it to my director. If I can justify it to my director then by definition it benefits him and our company.

I have no idea whether other users would be able to justify higher prices. It's none of my business.

[Adrian Slatter]

In fairness Ian, Vectorworks are trying to help people with upgrading via VSS. For someone who upgrades every other year, like yourself, 2 years of VSS is cheaper than paying the upgrade when your software is 2 versions behind. Not only that, but VSS provides access to a host of additional benefits including additional libraries and online support/training content. The only downside is that you ay annually in advance rather than 2 years down the line, but this in itself is helpful as it makes budgeting easier and you are not faced with a higher outlay, possibly at a time when cashflow is tight.

[Guest]

LOL...PAY IN ADVANCE...Why should users bankroll NNA's (half baked) product developments every year (when their product cycle is every 2 years?) if I like whats in a new release Ill upgrade.....stop trying to justify a price hike, without productivity gains.

[Christiaan]

Vectorworks are trying to help people with upgrading via VSS. For someone who upgrades every other year, like yourself, 2 years of VSS is cheaper than paying the upgrade when your software is 2 versions behind.

Is cheaper now, but didn't used to be before VSS, because there used to be a grace period where if you bought one version close to the release of the next version you'd get the next version free.

[Kevin McAllister]

The subscription pricing model seems to be based on the way Maxon (also a Nemetzchek company) has traditionally sold Cinema 4D. I'm not sure how long they have been but they are on a similar yearly release schedule. For them I think it may be based on trade show dates. They are also serving an industry that is moving forward quickly. For all the speed that they are moving forward with I can't say that I've encountered many bugs in Cinema 4D..... You would thing it was as equally complex as Vectorworks if not more so.

So far the subscription model has not been introduced for Vectorworks in Canada. We were told a year ago it was coming so I suspect maybe with 2012.

Kevin

[VectorGeek]

Quite honestly, we take advantage of a less and less of the new features each time a new release ships. The interruption to our workflow, training considerations, and potential for problems typically outweighs the advantages of upgrading. More often than not, we upgrade simply to keep in line with our OS changes (generally we buy brand new computers every 3-4 years. That usually brings a new OS, and with it the necessity of upgrading many software packages). There is NO way I would entertain a subscription or other pre-payment model of any kind.

Our firm is successful, profitable, and our users know and use the software with excellent proficiency. When we see a need for a tool to streamline processes, we have the staff to build it in-house. We can't be beta testers of new releases, nor do we necessarily need to adopt new workflows or methodologies simply because a software developer thinks they are a good idea.

So this begs the question: Is there a point where the continual development of features in a software program outpaces what the industry needs? And, have we reached that point? The complexity of the buildings we design changes at a very slow pace (mostly with the introduction of new building products), but the general goal remains the same: produce thorough construction documentation, in an acceptable time frame, with reasonable profitability.

Since transitioning from manual drafting to CAD with MiniCAD+ 4, our ability to achieve this goal has improved considerably. However, with each new release, we gain a smaller and smaller advantage.

V-G.

[Christiaan]

For us VW development hasn't been happening fast enough in the right areas.

Two things that would have made VW far more valuable to us over the past 3-5 years would have been to concentrate development resources on building modelling automation and 2D output automation.

Years ago now I saw first hand the productivity gains to be had from the ability to quickly build a model and then produce all documentation from that single model (in the form of somebody being in our office doing a project on ArchiCAD, while we plodded on in 2D drawing everything multiple times).

[VectorGeek]

Call me a non-believer, for the type of projects we do, I'm not convinced we could be any faster using BIM. The four most important features that have allowed us to take maximum advantage of our investment in VW are (in no particular order):

Parametric objects, especially the ability to create our own

Viewports

Built-in database/spreadsheets

Workgroup referencing

Those, coupled with VW's excellent 2D tool set, layer and class paradigm, and ease of use, are the reason we stay with it. You could take the rest away and we would continue to perform at the same level.

[Christiaan]

I'm not particularly a believer either, at least not in the BIM development trajectory NV has chosen. For them interoperability is the primary component of BIM. If that's the case then fine but it's not the BIM we've been after for the past 5 years.

The BIM we've been after is the ability to derive all of our 2D documentation from a single model.