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Bruce Kieffer

Screen Plane - Layer Plane

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Dear NVW, get rid of the screen plane and layer plane mess. I waste more time trying to figure why an object behaves unexpectedly, only to find that the plane is set wrong, either in the working plane drop down, or the OIP. I want a 2D tool created object to be 2D, and if I want that object to act like a 3D object, then I can change its attributes in the OIP. I can't be the only user frustrated by this. I think it's caused by your (NVW's) premature implementation of the unified 2D/3D workspace, and I rate that as mostly a failure.

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.. oh, & one more thing. When a series of objects are imported, VW assigns them to either Layer or Screen why exactly? Oh and guess what? one may not select everything & change it to one or another EVERY BLESSED ITEM NEEDS TO BE INDIVIDUALLY SELECTED BY TYPE TO ENSURE IT IS EITHER Screen or Layer. Thanks Dudes, thanks a whole lot! Not bad enough you've helped me waste a day I'll be at it again tomorrow & perhaps the next doing frustrating busy work that I can't bill a client for. So again, where can I send the invoice to?

You don't need to change the plane of objects one by one. The thing is that in the selection of objects you have, there are some kind of objects that can't be in the group in order to change the plane all together. I'm certain that there can't be groups in it for example, but I don't know about others.

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Jim,

Consider this Crickets Chirping :-)

We regret that you have lost so much time with these issues. Let's see if we can figure out how we can best address the concerns being expressed.

For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that we want our workflow to match those in 2009 and earlier - we want 2D objects to be attached to the Screen and not attached to a 3D location. This is a perfectly good workflow - it was all there was for so many years. It is a workflow that we tried very hard to continue to support. To remain competitive and viable we must continue to move forward. Please know that we place an extreme high priority on existing workflows as we consider the changes we make to the application.

So?

We want to set the active plane to be Screen Plane while using the Selection Tool or any tool that creates 2D objects. If the Active plane is set to Screen, then it should remain set to screen plane whenever the Selection Tool or 2D tool is active. This will cause all 2D objects created to be assigned to the screen plane. It will also cause the Selection tool to operate in the screen plane - this also provides the behavior for the 2D Selection tool of 2009.

So we should have Active Plane = Screen Plane whenever we use a 2D tool - Just like 2009 and before.

If a 3D or Hybrid tool is activated then the Active Plane can't be the screen plane - it still shows the active plane and this plane must be a 3D plane - usually the Layer plane.

If you return to a 2D tool or the Selection tool the Active plane will show "Screen Plane"

Once a 2D object is created, the Shape pane in the OIP has a Plane popup showing the plane it is assigned to.

Let's consider this a start to the conversation. We certainly will get into more detail as this conversation continues.

Steve Johnson

Nemetschek Vectorworks

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If the Active plane is set to Screen, then it should remain set to screen plane whenever the Selection Tool or 2D tool is active. This will cause all 2D objects created to be assigned to the screen plane. It will also cause the Selection tool to operate in the screen plane - this also provides the behavior for the 2D Selection tool of 2009.

That's all well and good but why does the plane selection switch to layer plane when the mirror tool or similar is invoked, even though the screen plane has been previously selected.

It's this sort of auto-behaviour that is part (not all) of the problem.

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if I start a new file, and have some objects in screen plane and some in layer plane, Vectorworks mirrors and copies these with the same settings as the original. So a layer plane object is copied as layer plane, regardless of the active layer plane.

On files from old versions, or imported files, that might be an issue

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Good of you to respond Steve....... Just one question how is it with the tape measure tool? Does that measure depending on the setting of the objects being measured?

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I too have trouble with the tape measure tool and protractor tool. These tools do not work in front view with the plane set as Layer. OK, so just change the plane. All this is wasted time! I don't want to have to look up at the Active Plane setting in the view bar for ever action I make.

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Bruce, though I sympathise with your troubles I do believe this is going to prove to be an essential and necessary part of '3D' drafting. As btw was the introduction of Unified View, which also still confuses me sometimes when I miss a setting there. After having read Steves explanation, which made sense! :) I believe it is simply a question of learning the program (new functions) properly and getting used to them.

Learning an old dog new tricks becomes more and more of an issue on my part as I get older(40) too (judging by the color of your beard, mine has started to shift color in that direction too :) no offence intended) and I must confess that after having (self)learned AutoCAD Point, Microstation, ArchiCAD, Vectorworks during the last 10 years always with some degree of enthusiasm and curiosity, I must admit that these feelings have now changed to a feeling of dogged resignation facing the fact that I now must start to learn Revit at the office I work at the moment. So have patience and persevere......I don't believe there is anything basically wrong with the function.

Edited by Vincent C

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The Tape Measure Tool;

First of all, I would like to make perfectly clear that we do not want you to waste all this time. SO? this discussion is sure to go a long way to resolving these issues as we work hard to move this software forward.

Thanks,

It is very helpful to focus on specifics.

Current state of the Tape Measure Tool:

This tool used to be limited to the screen plane and would only work when the screen/view was lined up with the objects being measured.

Frustration and misbehavior:

The tool currently requires a 3D plane. It should still support measuring if the Active Plane is set to Screen Plane. This is a BUG.

Currently, measuring must occur with the object aligned to the current 3D plane. In Front view, the application will align a temporary 3D plane to the front view and the tool will measure as it would if the active plane was set to Screen Plane.

Additional note: We recognize that this tool should not require a plane to measure objects.

Again?

We do not intend for you to waste time - please know that we will incorporate this feedback into our process so we can resolve this issue.

Thanks!!

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It would be nice:

If there were a setting so that objects drawn in a screen plane/layer plane/working plane could be differentiated while under construction. ie. I'm in screen plane and drawing a 12 point polygon. Until I finish that operation, the line of the polygon is a different color to remind me that the object is in screen plane. Right now I'm not paying attention to the little drop down box for screen plane/layer plane/working plane.

If there was an option in the preferences to make screen objects retain their relationship to the other objects in the view when their plane is changed. I don't know if I'm saying this correctly. But basically, I don't switch the objects plane in the OIP if it's not the right one. I throw it away because I know it's going to jump to somewhere else and I don't want to go find it. I WOULD switch it if it were to stay where I drew it.

If the current defaults of 2d tools as Steve has described them could be set to not be in screen plane, but rather be in the my current plane. So really what I want is to be in working plane mode all of the time. I've already made that mental switch in my mind for modeling objects and like it tremendously. Except for when I draw something and somehow it ends up in screen plane.

I truly think that Steven chiming in here is something a lot of us would like to see more of from VWHQ. I recognize that it's opening up a can of worms to do so, but I think it's great to actually get a response from the company.

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First of all THANK YOU Steve for your appearance and clearing up the "Tape Bug" question. i thought i had missed something.

it would also be nice to think all the other problems were known bugs as well but until then, could we please have an Off Switch for the new "Planes" enabling us to return to sanity and give us a choice to how we work.

i'm not saying get rid of the abilities, just do it all in ONE Plane, as it was and as it should be then maybe objects would stop disappearing.

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Perhaps we need a similar visual indication to the fact that we are in something other than layer plane!? ie a colored border around the drawing area as there is in the edit mode....

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Using colour to differentiate objects on different planes is a great idea.

...and yes thank you Steve for your much appreciated input.

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To keep this Screen Plane - Layer Plane mess going - Why no preference?

Would be simple to say, Thanks, but no thanks I don't want to have Layer Plane.

Peter (It say Greenhorn, but I still have the MiniCad+ floppies)

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Peter (It say Greenhorn, but I still have the MiniCad+ floppies)

Me too! Sad isn't it? :)

and Yes i want an "Off Switch" as well.

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The following is what can be seen in black and white. Please reference: VW2011_whats_new_bro.pdf

It is the very first thing on the first full page (Page 4) Notice especially the second sentence.

**********************************************

Make 3D as Easy as 2D

Vectorworks software is now, more than ever, a true 3D modeling

environment. 2D planar objects can be created and edited within

a planar context, where they display with all their attributes. You

can work in Top/Plan view as usual, or switch to a 3D view and

continue working in the same way, with the same tools and

operations!

Improved 3D Environment

The 3D environment is much more intuitive in the Vectorworks

2011 software. Working in 3D is similar to the ease of 2D, for a

truly unified and simplified experience. You can:

? Draft any shape, on any plane, in any view, using the tools

you already know how to use

? Edit planar objects from any view using familiar 2D operations

? Dimension objects in any plane

? Display graphic attributes of planar objects in any view

Working in 3D has never been easier.

**********************************************

Unfortunately this is not the case - if the application matched the marketing speak this would be such a major NNA faux pas.

I do not have a concern with the new Layer Plane / Screen plane paradigm. As it stands the unpredictability and inconsistencies does not allow one to

" ... continue working in the same way," and THAT is the concern - Peter

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Unfortunately this is not the case - if the application matched the marketing speak this would be such a major NNA faux pas.

Sorry I can't agree with you on this, I think most frustrations in this post are due to the fact that users have not understood or learned the function properly.

It's all a case of making it a habit of checking what plane you're in. I don't hear, for example, people complaining about objects 'suddenly' ending up in the wrong class (though I'm sure it still happens to us all regularly) and asking for NV to remove classes because they don't work.

Yes there are bugs and yes the UI perhaps needs to be enhanced but there is nothing wrong with the basic function, it is a useful addition. Again perhaps the implementation needed another year to be fully resolved before introduction, but there is another post that takes up this issue:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=31071&Number=152968#Post152590

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Make 3D as Easy as 2D

Vectorworks software is now, more than ever, a true 3D modeling

environment. 2D planar objects can be created and edited within

a planar context, where they display with all their attributes. You can work in Top/Plan view as usual, or switch to a 3D view and continue working in the same way, with the same tools and

operations!

But i could comfortably do all that before, more so . . . .

Improved 3D Environment

The 3D environment is much more intuitive in the Vectorworks

2011 software. Working in 3D is similar to the ease of 2D, for a truly unified and simplified experience.

Ya Think? . . . . . .

i must have missed that part.

You can:

? Draft any shape, on any plane, in any view, using the tools

you already know how to use

? Edit planar objects from any view using familiar 2D operations

Missed that part too . . . . . .

As it stands the unpredictability and inconsistencies does not allow one to

" ... continue working in the same way," and THAT is the concern - Peter

No that makes sense! :)

Peter, don't worry, my comments are aimed at the "Spin" not your comments.

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Sorry I can't agree with you on this, I think most frustrations in this post are due to the fact that users have not understood or learned the function properly.

If it was simply a case of checking the Plane, i'd have got over that niggle immediately, it takes 3 times as long to perform a simple operation, but i'd manage.

It's the fact that it switches when unnecessary! Then makes operations impossible coz it just wont work as and how it should. i've tried everything that has been suggested and i'm still no better off.

It's all a case of making it a habit of checking what plane you're in. I don't hear, for example, people complaining about objects 'suddenly' ending up in the wrong class (though I'm sure it still happens to us all regularly) and asking for NV to remove classes because they don't work.

Yes there are bugs and yes the UI perhaps needs to be enhanced but there is nothing wrong with the basic function, it is a useful addition. Again perhaps the implementation needed another year to be fully resolved before introduction

Give me an "Off Switch" that allows me to do everything i could prior to the New Planes syndrome without adding twenty operations to those things i still can do now.

Faux Pas? It's a Farse!

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I think most frustrations in this post are due to the fact that users have not understood or learned the function properly.

Objection Your Honour......I have bothered to learn the new ways, what I don't like is the self-selection of a plane by the program.

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Self selecting doesn't sound like a computer thing to do?! Isn't it like Steve said that the last setting for that specific tool or object defines the setting the next time you activate the tool or object?

Edited by Vincent C

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I draw all 2D objects in screen plane, but I end up in a layer plane view when I enter an extruded object to edit the 2D content. If NNA decides to add a preference to switch off layer planes (which they should) - perhaps they would be so kind as to place me in top plan view by default when entering the 2D content of 3D objects.

Another thing: I cannot do a tapered extrude using a 2D screen plane object. No particular reason - just can't. I have to change the 2D object to layer plane - then do the tapered extrude. Please, NNA, just let the application do the darn thing. I don-t care if the 2D content is converted into layer plane as long as I don't find out if I don't want to.

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Self selecting doesn't sound like a computer thing to do?! Isn't it like Steve said that the last setting for that specific tool or object defines the setting the next time you activate the tool or object?

That's one of my problems too. It shouldn't!!

This whole setup is so full of bugs that just prevent you from following procedures that many have been comfortably using for years.

Whilst the option to do simple thing like Rotate Working Plane still exists in the Menus, previously you could see this happen. The WP grid changed and you could see it, this now doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe it still works and can be used but i'm still having difficulties with it. Every single operation has been complicated to the Nth degree.

i've spent the last 4 days completely rebuilding objects that come up against "Plane" enigmas so once again i buried myself in the "New" format to prove to myself that it can be done, but right now i'm still unconvinced.

2009 was full of problems but it worked, after a fashion! What on earth were they thinking of when they decided to throw even more Gremlins into the basket. By the way Vincent, i use the Design package which is the same as the others now Machine Design has bitten the dust.

Forgive me for repeating myself, but CAD is supposed to simplify the drawing process not complicate it. 2011 has become a quagmire!

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Andrew you can rotate the working plane on screen.

If you click on the coloured axes: X=red, Y=green, Z=blue (the blue axis is only visible if you have the Show 3D Z Axis option turned on) the handles of the axes show (red, green and blue dots respectively) and you can then rotate the working plane using these. You can either snap to objects or you can tab into the floating data bar and enter rotation values.

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Thanks Mike for the rescue attempt.

i've read all the update info too, but remain confused.

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