Jump to content
  • 0

Screen Plane - Layer Plane


Bruce Kieffer

Question

Dear NVW, get rid of the screen plane and layer plane mess. I waste more time trying to figure why an object behaves unexpectedly, only to find that the plane is set wrong, either in the working plane drop down, or the OIP. I want a 2D tool created object to be 2D, and if I want that object to act like a 3D object, then I can change its attributes in the OIP. I can't be the only user frustrated by this. I think it's caused by your (NVW's) premature implementation of the unified 2D/3D workspace, and I rate that as mostly a failure.

Link to comment
  • Answers 136
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters For This Question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

Great work Mike (Truly Addicted...) Thanks.

( If users can't understand it after all this then in all likelihood they never will. )

Understanding what happens has not been the key, understanding why the default was Layer Plane (With no preference) - Me thinks this be the key to confusion and complaint.

What helps the novice is to think of Layer Plane objects as 3D - NOT as 2D - Like Screen Plane object is 2D - Maybe one should think of a Layer Plane objects as a 3D object that can not have the "Z" set to more than Zero. They can be moved, for example with "Move 3D". Like a 3D Polygon only with better color retention.

It also appears that in VW 2011 all 2D edit operations do not work on Layer Plane Objects as one expects them to work with Screen Plane objects ala VW 2010. (Move Command is an Example)

As for drawing Layer Plane in the Screen Plane / 2D world of a Hybrid Symbol, that's easy. But there in lies the rub. Not understanding the process (and the default set to Layer Plane) "Objects Disappear" - Not as expected with the traditional combination of 3D and 2D -

Layer Plane objects and Screen Plane Objects combined with 3D geometry can create some new style Hybrid Symbols. Visibility is based on View (as with Traditional Hybrid Symbols) and also with the Rendering Mode. (Though there still appears to be a Rendering "Bug" in this combination.)

One plus we have noted - The ability to Edit a Layer Plane Object rather than the Static condition rectangles take when you convert them to 3D Polygons. A definite plus. - Peter

Link to comment
  • 0

More suggestions:

- Have the option to the Show the 3D Z Axis turned on because that will give you a visual cue as to how you are viewing the model in 3D space. Get accustomed to the conventions that the X axis is red, the Y axis is green and the Z axis is blue.

- When editing the Layer Plane of 2D objects use Move 3D rather than Move. Then the moves will be relative to the working plane axes. (Move moves the object as if it is a 2D object floating on the screen so an X move will move the object to the right irrespective of the view and the actual direction the X axis.)

Peter the opacity of Layer Plane objects is set to 40% by default. You can make it what ever you want by editing the Wireframe options. (Rendering sub-menu under the View menu or via the rendering pop-up (tea pot icon) on the View bar. (See image below).

One final suggestion. Never move the 2D origin of any file or move the page because both can make it even more difficult to keep yourself oriented in 3D space.

Link to comment
  • 0

The development of VW from a predominantly 2D to a more predominantly 3D CAD app ("....everything you can do in 2D you can do in 3D....") is what has caused the confusion. This also explains why the default is Layer Plane instead of the 'historical' or if you like 'old fashioned' Screen Plane default.

I must admit that coming from other apps to VWs for some years ago now it confused me then and I've never really understood it since then either, the use of having certain objects always show up in 2D on screen while in a 3D view....?!

NV has promoted this version as a new and 3D friendly drafting environment (which has also widely been asked for on this forum btw!) and that is what we got the Default is 3D now not 2D.......

......I am very used to working in 3D in a large variety of CAD apps and I find everything works according to what I would expect, except for the tape measure tool which is an admitted bug.....I've tried looking hard for inconsequent behavior (mainly stimulated by this thread) but I just can't find any......

Edited by Vincent C
Link to comment
  • 0
matt m oz - Thanks Again

I find it ironic with VW 2011 as viewed in the Layer Plane / Screen Plane Video is essentially 2D Plan views mapped to four planes surrounding a plan view.

Is this presentation what the architectural world wants? - Peter

Maybe not, but the picture shows the effect you can create. You can get real cool effects with it. Try for example scanning a lot plan (a plan with the lots and their numbers and streets) and set it to the ground plan, then show your 3D with it and you have a nice flat plan in 3D and your 3D model on it.

I'll post an example tomorrow when I'm at work.

Link to comment
  • 0
matt m oz - Thanks Again

I find it ironic with VW 2011 as viewed in the Layer Plane / Screen Plane Video is essentially 2D Plan views mapped to four planes surrounding a plan view.

Is this presentation what the architectural world wants? - Peter

I think the point was (among others) to show that even existing 2D(dwg?) drawings can be used as a trace/reference in the new 3D environment.

Edited by Vincent C
Link to comment
  • 0

**********************

Try for example scanning a lot plan (a plan with the lots and their numbers and streets) and set it to the ground plan, then show your 3D with it ...

**********************

We started doing this for Tradeshows - and easy way to show the 3D Exhibit property with out drawing the product. Only we did it years ago as a texture mapped to a 3D poly.

I still think the thrust of the Layer Plane / Screen plane issue is the Marketing Speak vs the Reality. It started out as ... "You can work in Top/Plan view as usual, or switch to a 3D view and continue working in the same way, with the same tools and operations!" -

Evolved into ... "Top/Plan view is no longer mandatory for many tools; you can now use common 2D and 3D tools to interactively create and edit all planar 2D and 3D objects ... "

A work flow with added steps is not a new paradigm. Its a view changing time drain. (Ironically I bumped into a VW Plug in the other day called: Plane Mode - There are two flavors - Objects to ?Screen Plane?.vsm and Objects to ?Layer Plane?.vsm )

Just like the Attribute Mapping tool in 2010 they will work at it, change it and I hope they fix the issues. - Peter

Link to comment
  • 0

Whilst i do appreciate all the efforts Mike has put into this thread and the above list helps outline NV's rules for the use of the "Planes", we are still a long way off from coming close to the capabilities and practicality once known and loved in working with VW.

i've been conspicuous by my absence while trying to convince myself that it should be possible to adapt to the ethics of working with what you have available, but to say that it is difficult to achieve a fraction of what could be achieved with bug ridden predecessors of 2011 would be an understatement.

Although it is possible to create an object in situe, editing at a later date brings on too many anomalies and where as before profiles could be easily replaced with new ones the lack of support for all tools in every "Plane Instance" is absurd and no amount of switching will solve them. i've never had so many "The object you have tried to create cannot be computed . . . .? dialogues, even after VW was quite comfortable with it after 1st build but wouldn't let me check profiles without complaining.

Just hope the next SP is an improvement. But i still want an "Off Switch"!

Link to comment
  • 0

I am working on a raised floor at an angle to x,y axes. I set my working plane to the raised floor's surface, rotate the plan so I'm aligned, pop over into isometric view and draw a rectangle to serve as a pony wall on the floor. As soon as I try to create a floor out of the rectangle the rectangle aligns itself with x,y, not my rotated rectangle. Not helpful.

If I can make use of all of these working planes and rotations, I want to be able to make full use of them. What good did it do me to rotate about and make a new working plane if I couldn't make the object I wanted to on that plane?

Link to comment
  • 0

In response to wall vs floor object..they have different capabilities that I need to take advantage of. This "wall" in discussion was 4' wide, with an angle taken off of one side. So much easier to build as a floor, rather than a wall. And only being 15" high, supporting other walls, it's much more a floor than a wall.

I've asked several times for floor and wall characteristics to be enabled in other 3d objects. It would be to VW's advantage to make a set of tools more geared towards scenery (Landru where are you!) than to just architecture. Then we scenic designers would champion VW just as loudly as other disciplines do. But there are not so many of us....

Link to comment
  • 0

Grant, what I discovered was:

- If you draw the 2D planar shape, set the rotated working plane and then invoke the Floor command it gets created where the shape was drawn.

- If you set the rotated working plane, draw the 2D planar shape and then invoke the Floor command it gets created in another location.

That behaviour happens with both Floor and Pillar objects when you are in a 3D view, so I've bug reported it.

I agree it is a quick and simple way to create a simple hybrid object and its one I always show to Landscape users.

With the Floor command there isn't much point in setting a working plane because its elevation is always set relative to the Layer Plane (ground Plane in earlier versions) zero.

Edited by mike m oz
Link to comment
  • 0
I think you blokes are making more of this than it deserves.

The problem I discovered for me was when converting Vectorworks 2010 drawings to 2011 objects completely disappear. GONE.

Objects embedded in groups and symbols disappear. Symbols placed in drawings disappear. Things just plain disappear.

That's a problem.

I try editing the symbols to repair them and can't find the missing objects. Luckily I've been able to reopen older version files, or recover them with Time Machine, repair and replace. It's a huge time suck! Can I bill Nemetschek for lost time. Doubtful.

If there were a way to globally convert Layer to Screen plane or vice versa or use the magic wand tool to select, then convert that would be okay. A pain in the butt, but doable. I've found no way to be able to do it.

_________________

Why does Nemetscheck insist on adding buggy, poorly described features, while older bugs persist?

I guess it's much more important to squeeze the user base with feature-itis laden, buggy yearly upgrades, rather than the reasonable 18 month to 2 year cycle, raising the upgrade fee if one decides to skip versions OR pay for a "subscription" to "lower " upgrade costs.

Link to comment
  • 0
If there were a way to globally convert Layer to Screen plane or vice versa or use the magic wand tool to select, then convert that would be okay. A pain in the butt, but doable. I've found no way to be able to do it.

Try Petri's 'Plane Mode' plug-ins on this page: Vector Depot Plug-Ins

These menu tools allow quickly changing all entities in a file to either screen or layer plane. Petri Sakkinen VW 2011 or higher

HTH,

Tim

Link to comment
  • 0

If everything was just reverted to "ONE" plane, none of these problems would happen, then the only choice necessary would be to decide if you wanted to see the 2D object you have just created as the old 2D object or as a 3D profile in 3D space which could be a button dedicated to this and only this connected to the object. Yes i know that after a fashion it's already there but it's the others that are a pain.

Combine the "New Abilities" of the Screen Plane showing 2D objects in 3D views, Combine the Ability to turn a 2D object into a Working Plane(which i love), Combine the Ability of 2D profiles created in a Front Elevation or Left Elevation as the "Old Fashioned" 2D objects(that stay where you put them and don't need to be rotated in order to view and edit them in "Top/Plan" once they've been extruded or swept or lofted), but make them all work in "ONE" and ONLY "ONE' Plane.

The Working Plane as was. But not "Tied" to that one Plane(Top/Plan) . . . . . . .

i've tried, i really have made an effort to make use of what's on offer, but Let's face it, the Extra "Superfluous" Planes can do some pretty dandy little tricks, but even when they don't cause Crashes and can read a complete old file from 2009 or 2010 without loosing half the contents or complaining that the file is corrupt, there really is nothing so remarkable that they have brought to the table that couldn't be done in half the time in v2009/2010.

"Ditch 'em!!"

Link to comment
  • 0

Not quite true Andrew, now instead of aligning, rotating, flipping etc 3D objects from the top view to what ever orientation is needed after their creation, you create the object directly the way it's supposed to be in any view.

See it like this:

Layer Plane is the main default 'mother' x/y plane in 3D space.

Working Plane is a temporary plane for drafting in 3D space.

Screen Plane is the plane parallel to the monitor (screen), independent of how your viewing you workspace/model. IMHO to be avoided at all costs......

Basically you should always try to have the Layer Plane as default when drawing anything in 2D.......... (this counts for architecture, I don't know how often there is a need for having 2D objects flat on screen in an isometric view in Mechanics...however even then it is better to convert these from Layer/Working to Screen plane if needed later on!?)......unless you need to extrude, rotate, mirror, split etc objects along a certain (strange) 3D plane. In this case you can define a working plane that lies perpendicular/parallel to the operation and simply work with this.

2D objects created in the Layer Plane mode are 3D-2D objects on the x,y plane, they rotate with the model in isometric views.

2D objects created on a Working Plane are 3D-2D objects on a certain 3D plane, they rotate with the model in isometric views.

2D objects created in the Screen Plane mode are 2D-2D objects they always lie in the exact same place on your screen regardless of what view you are in or how you rotate your model (until you convert them to a 3D object, in this case they rotate with the model, however the original 2D object is still a Screen Plane object so when you try to edit this from a different view than when it was created you need to align to the 2D object to correctly edit it.

Andrew perhaps you could describe a situation in which you 'need' the Screen Plane setting instead of the Layer/Working Plane. This might help us in understanding your difficulties and possibly suggest a new/different/better way of working.

Again I think you need to try to completely forget about using Screen Plane, (just make sure not to forget to check that it is not active once in a while.......I think many peoples frustrations come from not checking this).

Edited by Vincent C
Link to comment
  • 0

Last night's modelling of a conic item brought up another one. I had 3d locus points set in a section across the conic, and needed to create nurbs curves from them. So...picked the nurbs arc tool, started picking my 3d locus points.

And the thing could either snap to the layer plane, or the screen plane, but not to the 3d loci in space as I needed them to be. If I have a 3d tool, shouldn't it snap to 3d loci?

Link to comment
  • 0

Vincent, i have found that editing a 2D object can only be done with the Reshape tool in Screen. OK i get this, but the problem is once in Layer, sometimes the object will not revert to the Classic 2D flattie we all remember in 2009, so you can't edit it.

So far this only happens in Extruded, Lofted, Swept or any of the other 3D from 2D situations etc, but, it happens. No amount of trying to switch Planes in the OIP, Tool Bar or any other pulldown you can dream up solves it. Maybe it's just old files . . . . . .

i know that if you have "show other objects" selected it gives you the idea that you are working in the View the object was created in, but it does not change the fact that the New Planes are unnecessary and consume heaps of time. Yes i have learned to work with them, And an enormous "THANK YOU" goes to Mike Oz for clearing up a lot of the niggles, but, it doesn't mean they're of any use.

As i have stated before, computers/software are supposed to make things easier, not more complicated.

Can't wait to see what sort of catastrophe will erupt when VW has to start dealing with the imminent release of OSX Lion. i have a feeling NV will be obliged to resign itself to a Fresh Start, but my fear is they'll just drop Mac support altogether. i know it will run, but considering the problems that 2011 is going through, i'm scared years of work(old files) will become inaccessible.

Like Jeff, i had to transfer loads of Symbols and objects from a file that was considered "Corrupt" (not blank like his) one layer at a time. The "Import Design Layers" in the Layer dialogue didn't work either, and gave the same "Corrupt" excuse. Only solution was to recreate all of the layers one at a time in a new file, then Copy from the Bad file and Paste into the new one. Fortunately it solved the problem, but it's not the sort of hassle you expect from a new release/upgrade and wasting 2 to 3 hours to do it is not an uplifting experience. The original file still works fine in the version it was created in. If i hadn't already made numerous mods i could have just have reopened it from v2009 then v2010, but there's still the "Sword of Damocles" hanging above that it might just happen again. Now i have to consider that i may need to follow the same procedure with every pre 2011 file i wish to work on just to avoid "Corrupt File" warnings.

i want to be able to sing the praises of VW, i've invested too many years into it not to, but in order to do that, problems that have been plaguing it that have had requests from users to be resolved over and over and over again that still haven't been looked at must be addressed instead of adding yet more unnecessary "Election Pole Boosters".

Stabilizing VW and getting everything to work flawlessly first, then see if it needs novel ways of working the "New Planes" gimmick, then we can give it a try.

And if you need a pointer as to what VW should be capable of just take a look, Check this??

i selected an interior design movie (and it's mainly for the render aspect) so you aren't convinced that i'm pushing an Engineering product, but it does that too and all as VW should have been capable of since VW v10 and it manages it all without needing "Multiple Plane Disciplines". If the Push\Pull Tool could me made to work on as many levels as "SC" does and include Tapers, Fillets, Chamfers, Sweeps and any of the other extrude tools that struggle at present, then VW may return to being the Great product it used to be.

"SC" has all of the "Wall Joining" disputes covered, the "Roof/Wall Fit" trained, in fact every problem that has been cause for debate here on the forum, are as smooth as silk. i'm not saying it won't suffer somewhere but when a "Shell Tool" can do it to absolutely any profile it really does make you wonder how much unnecessary baggage is still being carried around in the VW "U Haul It" trailer.

i love VW when it works, trouble is, it now struggles with the simplest of actions and even if transferring components of an old file into a new file helps, it shouldn't be that complicated.

Edited by AndiACD
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...