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Screen Plane - Layer Plane


Bruce Kieffer

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Dear NVW, get rid of the screen plane and layer plane mess. I waste more time trying to figure why an object behaves unexpectedly, only to find that the plane is set wrong, either in the working plane drop down, or the OIP. I want a 2D tool created object to be 2D, and if I want that object to act like a 3D object, then I can change its attributes in the OIP. I can't be the only user frustrated by this. I think it's caused by your (NVW's) premature implementation of the unified 2D/3D workspace, and I rate that as mostly a failure.

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I'm hoping the attached file will demystify some of the confusion which exists with how Working Planes appear to move around when you are editing the 2D source of 3D objects. To see what is happening you will need to:

- Turn on the Vectorworks Display Preference Show other objects while in editing modes and the Gray other objects option (see image below).

- Have the 3D Grid Axes visible (see image below).

If you open this drawing you will see an array of the same simple extrude. Each copy has been moved and rotated so it is in a different 3D orientation to how the original extrude was created. When you double click on each object you will be able to see in context how the Working Plane and its axes then show relative to where X, Y and Z were when the original extruded object was created.

This working plane rotation exists so you can see in any 3D view the context of how the original 2D was drawn when the object was created. Without that it would be very easy to become disoriented.

The behaviour has changed from earlier versions where:

- 2D could only be drawn and edited in the screen plane.

- Working Planes would only show when you invoked them.

- When you edited the 2D source of a 3D object you were automatically taken to the view of how it was originally drawn and you were looking directly at it. This was in fact its working plane but without anything showing that this was the case.

The behaviour had to change in Vw 2011 to provide us with the ability to work in 3D. As 2D can now be drawn and edited in 3D space in any 3D view the Working Plane needs to show whenever you are effectively working on a working plane so you stay oriented. Therefore when you now edit the 2D source of a 3D object you stay in your current view and the pink working plane indicator becomes visible so you can see what plane and orientation that 2D was originally drawn on.

When you first enter the object to edit it the pink working plane indicator initially shows where the previous views working plane origin was and then it moves to the origin of the working plane you are now working on. If you change the view and end up looking side on to the drawn 2D the working plane indicator changes appearance to show this by having a thick dashed outline.

If you prefer to look directly at the 2D when you are editing it you have two options:

- Click on the Look at Working Plane icon. With this method the pink working plane indicator will still be visible.

- Switch to Top Plan View. With this method the pink working plane indicator will not be visible.

If you do edit this way you need to be aware that when you exit the edit you will be in the last view you were in whilst editing. So if you were in Top/Plan View whilst you were editing the 2D that is what you will be in when you exit the edit. Therefore if you want to return to the 3D view you were in before you entered the object to edit it you will need to remember what view you were in prior to starting the edit so you can return to that view prior to exiting the edit, or invoke it again after you have exited the edit.

There is one inconsistency in the behaviour: If the 2D was drawn on the Ground Plane and the object is exactly how it was when it was extruded you will not see the pink working plane indicator when you enter the object to edit its 2D. If you have moved the object in any way (move, rotate, mirror or elevate) you will see the pink working plane indicator.

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Three more files to experiment with using the same Vectorworks Display and 3D Grid Axes settings in the post above.

These are a little more complicated as the duplicate objects are in a circular array around the original object. They rotate in plan view and roll in elevation view. This shows how the Working Plane does the same so the 2D drawn parts are always shown in their original relationship to the X, Y and Z axes.

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Yes!

The Plane: menu in the OIP will change the plane of selected objects.

The Plane: menu at the top of the screen only affects newly drawn objects. Set the plane at the top of the screen to what you want and leave it there.

Best option.

Open a new document.

Set the PLANE Menu at the top of the screen to what you want for most of your drawing.

Save this file with "Save as template...".

Name the file "Default.vwx"

Next time you open a new file, the plane will be what you want and all 2D objects will be drawn there.

Raymond

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Screen Plane is the old style 2D where what's drawn sits on the screen and as you rotate the model in 3D it stays where it is on the screen. Or to put it another way it floats on the screen above the model.

Layer Plane is the new style 2D where what's drawn sits on a plane in 3D space and therefore moves with the other objects when you rotate the model in space.

The source 2D of a 3D object will always be Layer Plane. It can be Screen Plane when you draw it but as soon as you extrude or sweep it will become Layer Plane. When you edit those objects and they are selected you will see its Plane on the OIP show as "Extrude" for extrusions and "Sweep" for sweeps.

So in most cases you can draw 2D as Screen Plane and then use it to create 3D objects by extruding, sweeping etc. The one exception to that is tapered extrudes where the 2D has to be Layer Plane. If you try it with a Screen Plane object you will get a fail dialog.

I think the best way to work is to have Layer Plane set as the default and use Working Planes when you need to extrude sideways. The only time that becomes difficult is when there is no object to set a Working Plane on. There are three ways around that problem:

- Draw the object in Top/Plan View and then rotate it.

- Switch to Screen Plane, draw it and then extrude or sweep it (this method won't work with tapered extrudes as mentioned above).

- Set the Working Plane at the ground plane and then interactively rotate the working plane (this only works if you have the grid visible).

So in general:

- If you want the 2D to float over the model and always stay parallel to the screen use Screen Plane.

- If you want the 2D to be part of the 3D model and rotate with it use Layer Plane.

With Layer Plane 2D objects they are drawn by default on the active plane. When you don't have a working plane set the active plane will be the ground plane of the layer (ie their Z will be 0). If you want them at a Z other than 0 then you will need to create a working plane at the required Z before you draw them (or you can use the Move 3D command to elevate them). If you want them on planes that are not parallel to the ground plane you will need to set a working plane first and then draw on that.

Edited by mike m oz
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There are resources available which can help users understand the new working protocol:

The free training guide Getting Started with Vectorworks Spotlight 2011 by Kevin Lee Allan. Section 3 has some very good information on 3D modelling, Layer Plane and Screen Plane objects and the use of Working Planes: http://www.nemetschek.net/training/free_resource.php

The relevant videos in the Online Video Library: http://www.nemetschek.net/library/index.php

The Archoncad 3D Modelling Tutorial Manual by jonathan Pickup: http://www.archoncad.co.nz/manuals/manuals/tutorial.html

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Thx mike for your explenation.

I already figured it out myself, with you confirming it. But there are still problems with these planes when editing symbols. When you go into the history of objects and go out of it, things dissappear and you need to go out of the symbol and in again. Or things don't edit the way you say because of a confusion VW has with these planes and symbols. I really hope they fix this because I generally like the new 3D modeling style of 2D objects.

Just my thoughts.

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Despite appearances to the contrary i DO respect every ones point and suggestions on this forum, i may not agree, but i understand your input.

What i find difficult to accept is, regarding Mike's examples, when i select an object, choose Edit Mode and use the N? KeyPad to to navigate around the object, i should get "1" Left Isometric, "3" Right Isometric, "7 Left Rear Isometric, "9" Right Rear Isometric. This was always the result prior to the New Planes Iteration. Now, in each of these selections i get "Custon View" instead of the standard view and the orientation is no longer that which is expected. Even when Layer is selected instead of Screen and Working Plane is no longer offered as an option the View is Not one of the aforementioned choices. Any attempt to arrive at the previously chosen view seems impossible.

Why?

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I found this screen plane/layer plane thread because I am livid about how much of a cluster %%#@! it is to work with.

Forgive me if this has been repeated, but I set my files to create everything in the screen plane to begin with.

so I draw some 2d shapes, and extrude them.

at some point i want to edit that extrude. say i want to clip a shape out of the original 2d geometry. i draw said shape where i want it, and it appears elsewhere.

and when i double click on an extrude to edit it, i want to see the 2d geometry as i drew it, not in its rotated, "faux 3d orientation"

I fail to see where, this layer/screen plan crap is useful.

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We design with hundreds of existing Hybrid Symbols - in hundreds of existing details. One Layer Plane / Screen Plane "Issue" that has been noted is editing Hybrid Symbols. Typically the 2D component can be "extracted" from the 3D component of the Hybrid Symbol.

Hybrid Symbols have been a key to efficiency with what we do.

In the past, an edit was to the fundamental (Screen) 2D component of an extrude in a hybrid symbol (for example). This (Screen) 2D component could then be copied and "Pasted in Place" onto the 3D component of a Hybrid Symbol without the need to change view or mode. Now the program assumes that you want it to be "Layer Plane" (Listed as 3D Plane in the OIP) in the active orientation. So ... the "Paste in place function" does not work as in past versions, especially with hybrid symbols that are rotated or mirrored on the drawing. (Edit with the double click to edit method of editing a symbol in the drawing)

The work around is to paste the 2D component - open the OIP - change from 3D Layer to Screen Layer, use the cursor to move this Screen object to the desired location and exit the symbol. If you do not make this change, this expected 2D portion of the Hybrid "disappears" and there is an additional (Layer) 2D component in a 3D view.

It should also be noted, that pasting this above mentions "extracted" 2D "Layer Plane" component may result in an object location that is not visible on the screen. Zoom out, or select all - fit to objects - is required to find the location. (Do not have a handle on why this happens) and Preference settings do not appear to alter this behavior.

The complaint on our end is not the addition of the Layer Plane, but the additional view changes / component changes / additional steps we need to do with VW 2011, by default, to complete the same work, based on the default application settings. - There should definitely be a Preference for this mode - Peter

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Like you say Peter, the Copy/Paste in Place Command leaves a lot to be desired.

i think you will find, if you choose a 3D view, say Left Isometric, you should find that the "Paste in Place" will have glued your object to what used to be called the Ground Plane, now Layer Plane. Select the Top/Plan View and the relative position will be correct, but in the "WRONG View", Plan instead of say, Front View(if that's where you originally create the 2D object, "hypothesis". or where ever).

Yep! It's a REAL Pain in the But!t.

It usually takes me about 3 "Rotate" operations to get the object into the correct position and a "Drag" or "Move".

Horrendous!

Good Luck to you . . . .

Andi

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Looking back at my original post of this thread, I still believe that the screen plane/layer plane business is a mess, and it needs to be simplified. I much preferred drawing with VW 2010. I do see the value of projecting 2D objects on a 3D plane, but not at the expense of all the associated problems. I'm 8 months into using VW 2011, and I my work flow is much less efficient. I'm exhausted with what seems to be constant battles trying to figure out why something does not behave as I think it should, and then finding a lot of the time the solution is to quit VW and reboot, and then I have no idea why that solves the issue.

90% of the drawings I work on were created with previous versions of VW. I hear so much about starting a new file will eliminate problems. That is just not feasible. If I can't use my older converted files with confidence, then I cannot upgrade to newer versions of VW.

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Question for Mike M Oz or anyone ... How do you work with Hybrid Symbols?

Open an existing Hybrid in VW 2010 - Modify the "Fundamental 2D" component. An extrude for example. Copy that modified 2D element. Exit the extrude. Paste in place. Exit Symbol Edit. (In Top / Plan view you see the 2D and in Top view you see the 3D.

Now try this in VW 2011 - Peter

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Hi,

just want to tell what I found out about the dissappearing objects bug. The objects aren't gone, you just have to reenter the symbol again.

The problem happens when editing the history of an object in a symbol, while you were in 2D/Plan view when entering the symbol or when you entering the history.

So avoid being in 2D/Plan view when editing 3D parts of symbols will avoid this problem.

I bugsubmitted it. And I'm really sure this has something to do with the planes. And I really love them, but the need to become better for handling.

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Question for Mike M Oz or anyone ... How do you work with Hybrid Symbols?

Open an existing Hybrid in VW 2010 - Modify the "Fundamental 2D" component. An extrude for example. Copy that modified 2D element. Exit the extrude. Paste in place. Exit Symbol Edit. (In Top / Plan view you see the 2D and in Top view you see the 3D.

Now try this in VW 2011 - Peter

Peter, I must be missing something because when I do as you suggest I see the same behaviour as before.

When the 2D of a hybrid symbol is edited it is located relative to the symbol's zero. (ie at its 'symbol origin') whereas the 2D of any extrude uses its location relative to the drawing origin when it was first extruded. So the 2D part ignores where it was relative to the drawing origin when the symbol was created and the 3D part remembers where it was relative to the drawing origin when it was created (the logic behind that behaviour has always escaped me).

In all versions when you edit an extrude in the 3D portion of the symbol and paste in place the copied 2D it is locates in the same location relative to the 'symbol origin' as it was in the 2D symbol part. If you leave it where it is when you exit the extrude edit you will find the extrude has now moved relative to the 'symbol origin'. This remembering origin can become a real problem if the 3D part is more complex. eg if you have carried out solid additions and subtractions and/or the 3D part is made up of nested symbols.

If you are seeing something different can you please explain step by step what you are doing to create the problem, or better still post a series of images showing what you are doing.

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. . . . 90% of the drawings I work on were created with previous versions of VW. I hear so much about starting a new file will eliminate problems. That is just not feasible. If I can't use my older converted files with confidence, then I cannot upgrade to newer versions of VW.

Don't worry Bruce, the problems do not dissipate or disappear if you work in a new file. Although Restarting does make a modecom of difference for about 5 minutes. Even total redraws don't seem to improve matters.

Yes the 2D on 3D Plane is snazzy but that's all. the whole thing needs a few more years of R&D before it will be ready for release onto VW's unsuspecting users.

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Mike M Oz and others ...

More on Layer Plane vs Screen Plane

Please see the attached File. Paste In Place is functional, as mentioned, in VW 2010 and apparently in VW 2011 Only when a Hybrid Symbol is edited from the Resource Browser. (Example: Symbol-Screen Plane) have a movie to document same.

The Layer / Screen Plane has added several steps of complexity to what was a simple workflow with Hybrid Symbols. I don?t have an alternate, yet, that is as easy with VW 2011 as it was in 2010. But, I have boiled some of it down to two tracks.

One. Edit (Hybrid) symbols ONLY from the Resource Browser

Edit 2D First. Screen Plane objects / Hybrid Symbols appear to behave as expected.

Two. Move from the 2D or Screen Plane world to the Layer or ?Extrude Plane? world. And the number of steps will be minimized. (ie: you won?t have to remember if it was drawn as Layer or Screen Plane its ALL Layer plane now.

Unfortunately this equates to ... Do not use the ?double click to edit? a Symbol method to edit an Instance on the drawing.

There is a Video on You Tube that would lead you to believe that the switch from

Screen Plane to Layer plane is simple. Reality is different. Consider that once you make any Screen Plane objects into a 3D Object, such as an extrude, you are NOT able to go back to a Screen Plane.

It appears that you can edit the ?2D - Layer Plane? geometry in Top - Top / Plan - even Right Isometric View, all as if it were ?2D - Screen Plane? geometry. So that is a plus for VW 2011. The problem with this is multifaceted. Those accustomed to calling up commands on the key board, for example, now are instructed to keep the OIP open and work in this mode. (added complexity)

If, as the ( VW2011_whats_new_bro.pdf) states ... ?You can work in Top/Plan view as usual, or switch to a 3D view and continue working in the same way, with the same tools and operations!? - Then one would think that all the tools would work. Layer or Screen Plane. They don?t.

Some assumptions that need confirmation: In a Hybrid Symbol, there appears to be a 50% tint coloration when a Layer Plane ?2D? object is viewed in non rendered views other than Top / Plan. Full coloration denotes a Screen Plane object or when a Layer Plane ?2D? object is in Top / Plan View. Not sure if this is an aberration - unable to find documentation about this feature ( ... Or Bug)

Question? What is the difference in the third (or fourth) Plane?

Screen - Layer - Extrude #1 - #2 etc - Symbol.

Peter

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SCREEN PLANE 2D OBJECTS:

- Can only be 2D.

- Will always float on the screen no matter how you change the view.

- All 2D edit operations will work on them.

LAYER PLANE 2D OBJECTS

- Can only be 2D.

- Will always move with the model as you change the view maintaining their relationship to it.

- Can be drawn on any plane and therefore can be horizontal or vertical or inclined, and because they can be rotated at any angle on that plane they can even be upside down.

- All 2D edit operations will work on them on their drawn or working plane.

2D SOURCE OF 3D OBJECTS

- Prior to the creation of the 3D object the 2D can be drawn as Layer Plane objects on any Working Plane. It can be drawn as Screen Plane objects like they were in previous versions but with the same limitations as existed then.

- After the creation of the object the 2D source of the 3D object will always be Layer Plane. It has to be Layer Plane so that the 3D object can be edited in any view.

- Therefore whenever you edit the 2D source of a 3D object you must always use Layer Plane 2D objects.

2D IN SYMBOLS

- Screen Plane 2D will be in the 2D part of the symbol.

- Layer Plane 2D will be in the 3D part of the symbol.

SCREEN PLANE 2D SYMBOLS

- Will float on the screen unless you activate the OIP Plane option for them to be Layer or Working Plane. If you change the OIP Plane option back to Screen Plane they will return to being screen plane objects which float on the screen.

- Can only contain Screen Plane objects and these will be in the 2D part of the symbol.

- When you edit these you must edit the 2D part of the symbol and only use Screen Plane 2D objects. All 2D edit operations will work on them.

- Prior version 2D symbols become this type of 2D symbol on conversion.

LAYER PLANE 2D SYMBOLS

- Will always insert on the active Working Plane and their plane cannot be changed on the OIP.

- Can only contain Layer Plane objects and these will be in the 3D part of the symbol.

- When you edit these you must edit the 3D part of the symbol and only use Layer Plane 2D objects. All 2D edit operations will work on them on their drawn or working plane.

3D SYMBOLS

- Will always insert on the active Working Plane and their plane cannot be changed on the OIP.

- Can only contain 3D objects and these will be in the 3D part of the symbol.

- In Top/Plan View what you see is the wireframe view of the 3D object(s).

HYBRID SYMBOLS

- Can only insert on the Active Layer Plane (Ground Plane in earlier versions).

- Have separate 2D and 3D parts so what you see in Top/Plan View is different to what you see in Top or any other 3D view.

- The 2D symbol part can only contain Screen Plane objects and anything you draw in there during edits must be Screen Plane.

- The 3D part can only contain 3D objects. This can include Layer Plane 2D objects but these will then only be visible in 3D views.

HOW PASTING CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS WHEN YOU ARE EDITING SYMBOLS

- When you are editing symbols the plane will automatically switch when you edit the parts. So if you enter the 2D symbol part it will become Screen Plane and if you enter the 3D symbol part it will become Layer or Working Plane.

- If you paste in a 2D object of the opposite plane type it will switch to the opposite symbol part when you exit the edit and the symbol will become a hybrid symbol.

PASTE IN PLACE

- If you copy 2D from the drawing its location will be 'remembered' relative to the origin of the drawing at that time.

- If that origin is moved the paste in place will be relative to that new origin.

- Thus when you edit symbols or extrude source 2D the paste in place will be relative to 'their object origin' and not to the origin you had when you copied the 2D.

SOME SIMPLE RULES WHICH MAY HELP

- If you paste 2D into a symbol part always make sure it is the correct plane type for that symbol part. Change it if necessary via the Plane option on the OIP.

- When editing symbols or 3D objects make the Working Plane mode active prior to doing any editing. That way the standard views will be relative to the orientation of how that object's 2D was originally drawn (ie. in Top View positive X will be on the right and positive Y will be up). If you want to look directly at the object use the Look at Working Plane button.

Edited by mike m oz
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Here is a file which incorporates the text in my previous post and contains symbols of each type:

- Change the view to see how each of them behaves.

- Edit the 2D and 3D parts to see what type of object each symbol part contains.

NOTE: This will be my last post on this topic - I simply can't afford to spend the amount of unpaid time I have on this thread. If users can't understand it after all this then in all likelihood they never will.

Edited by mike m oz
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