Jump to content
  • 0

Screen Plane - Layer Plane


Bruce Kieffer

Question

Dear NVW, get rid of the screen plane and layer plane mess. I waste more time trying to figure why an object behaves unexpectedly, only to find that the plane is set wrong, either in the working plane drop down, or the OIP. I want a 2D tool created object to be 2D, and if I want that object to act like a 3D object, then I can change its attributes in the OIP. I can't be the only user frustrated by this. I think it's caused by your (NVW's) premature implementation of the unified 2D/3D workspace, and I rate that as mostly a failure.

Link to comment
  • Answers 136
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters For This Question

Recommended Posts

  • 0
... but couldn't they be accomplished with a Project 2D Object checkbox in the OIP ...

Bruce, That's already in the OIP. The check box is in the guise of a Popup Menu and has the options Screen Plane / Layer Plane. One projects the other doesn't.

I think your frustration will diminish when the tool interactions with the planes gets worked out. Having the two planes is not a problem. Having them switch, and not being able to lock them to one or the other, is the problem.

Raymond

Link to comment
  • 0
Pat,

I agree those are important functions, but couldn't they be accomplished with a Project 2D Object checkbox in the OIP, and then they would "project" in 3D views, or be 2D if the box were not checked?

I probably should have put in a third option

I want to put in a dimension or other 2D type object but have it show at the mid point of an object and don't want to have to define a new layer for it to project to. This requires a working plane.

Once you have an arbitrary number of working planes then the check box won't cut it you need a menu like it is now.

I agree with Raymond that the implementation should get better with a little more time (though maybe not in 2011).

Link to comment
  • 0
... but couldn't they be accomplished with a Project 2D Object checkbox in the OIP ...

Having them switch, and not being able to lock them to one or the other, is the problem.

Raymond

A Lock is essential.

But bring back the OLD Working Plane format/function, all is forgiven

IMVHO

Link to comment
  • 0

It seems to me that all of this angst would not exist if returning to Top/Plan View didn't cancel the set Working Plane. It is behaviour that users mostly don't want and ends up confusing them. A set Working Plane should only be cancelled by the user selecting the Active Layer Plane from the pop-up and until they do that all views should be relative to that Working Plane and it should not be possible to select Top/Plan View.

The same applies to Plan Rotation. Choosing Top/Plan View should not cancel the Plan Rotation. When the plan has been rotated Top/Plan View should be relative to that rotated plan state so the user is not constantly having to go back in and repeatedly reset the plan rotation.

Both of the existing behaviours are not what a user would reasonably expect (hence the confusion) and in most cases it is not what they want. Fix it and most of this angst will go away.

Edited by mike m oz
Link to comment
  • 0

Have to agree with Mike here, settings changing without it being wished or expected is very confusing and frustrating.

Perhaps some extra visual aids are needed on screen when drafting to further enhance these functions. ie. different plane colors for different modes or even a colored frame around the window (as it is in the symbol edit mode) when one enters screen plane mode etc......

Link to comment
  • 0

There would also be less confusion if the term Top/Plan View wasn't used. Its a Plan View and we all understand the 2D only abstract nature of a plan view. Therefore call it what it is rather than use a different term for it.

Also having behaviour where a simple switch from Top View to Plan View can cause a dramatic reorientation of the drawing isn't wise. It should not happen. If the user wants to reorient the drawing let them choose to do it rather than have it happen for some arbitrary reason.

Link to comment
  • 0
Have to agree with Mike here, settings changing without it being wished or expected is very confusing and frustrating.

This is the most poigniant factor related to these implementations. With all the requests for mods over the years, this was the last thing we needed.

It may be possible to work with them, by all means improve function and operation . . . . . But, "If it broke don't fix it".

Link to comment
  • 0
With all the requests for mods over the years, this was the last thing we needed.

Andrew, actually I was refering to settings within the workspace, I think these new functions are necessary to make 3D drafting possible, however the way they are implemented needs to be looked over.

Edited by Vincent C
Link to comment
  • 0

Mike, i do appreciate that aspect and yes it's great to be able to see 2D objects in 3D space as and where they were created, but IMHO it would simply have been much more practical and intuitive to have been able to access this without creating a whole new virtual Plane just to use it.

Link to comment
  • 0

Wow Bruce, I see that I'm not the only one who's pounding the desk with his head over this mess! I also see that it's not just me who has screen & layer change in an arbitrary way.

Let me toss a curve from an earlier post I made:

I imported an ACad drawing & some of the components have a THIRD INVISIBLE PLANE! [Yes I'm yelling ]

What is making this so very frustrating is editing 3D objects, I can no longer get a reference to edit stuff in 3D, so what one must do is redraw objects rather than edit existing ones.

For one who uses both the 3D & 2D in every file, the improvements have been all but overshadowed by the confusion & changes that come off as bugs.

Heres a hint to the Makers of VW:

When P&G makes a new detergent they put a STARBURST on it & scream NEW & IMPROVED! If you plan on Effing something up, ah, er, that is improving something- follow their example. Want to change, say the default of ROTATE LEFT? Give me a big shinny button & if I hit the old Command L (because I don't know or it's mussel memory) have a mariachi band play The Tijuana Taxi & have the screen go green.

From what I've read in this thread, those that like the change are the ones who were looking for it, & I would guess this is a small minority of users. Giving some a tool that upsets many more because of the shabby way it's implemented & communicated is just plain dumb.

I second Bruce on this, please fix this as part of VW2011.

Link to comment
  • 0

I think you blokes are making more of this than it deserves. What has changed is you can now edit 2D shapes in the view you were in prior to starting the edit. That includes rotated plan views and all 3D views. That enhances the 3D modelling functionality.

In Vw 2009 and earlier versions those 2D shapes could only be edited in plan view and there was an inconsistency in that some 2D shapes were edited differently. Floor, pillar and roof object 2D shapes were edited in view context. Other objects like extrusions and symbols were not.

In Vw 2011 the behaviour has been made consistent so that all objects can be edited in view context. That means that the 2D objects will be seen as they were in the view you were in prior to commencing the edit. If you want to edit them in the view they were originally drawn in you need to select Top/Plan View as your view.

That is where the problem lies if you select Top/Plan View, or activate the look at working plane view, when you exit the edit, that is the view you will be in. You are not returned to the view you were in prior to the edit. That did not happen in earlier versions.

For me that is the big problem. View changes whilst you are editing the 2D shape of an extrusion, hybrid symbol etc should not set the view you are in when you exit the edit.

PS

The ability to draw and edit 2D objects in any view substantially increases the usability of the program. It does mean adapting to new ways of working but the benefits are worth it.

Edited by mike m oz
Link to comment
  • 0
You are not returned to the view you were in prior to the edit. That did not happen in earlier versions.

For me that is the big problem. View changes whilst you are editing the 2D shape of an extrusion, hybrid symbol etc should not set the view you are in when you exit the edit.

That's annoying but i've got to admit i was all ready to embark on a biblical rant, so went again to check up on what i was talking about and i have to conceed that this is the major hickup and most of my niggles can be circumnavigated with a bit of extra foresight(isn't CAD supposed to make things easier). Not saying it wouldn't be far better if everything was available under the previous "Plane" iteration without needing to go fish in the OIP, but it can be "managed". i don't like it but it is do-able.

PS

The ability to draw and edit 2D objects in any view substantially increases the usability of the program. It does mean adapting to new ways of working but the benefits are worth it.

i'm not sure about this one though. i was able to anyway, only the 3D aspect was missing which in some circumstances is great, but as i stated previously, why couldn't this have been added to what we already had without the need of a dropdown. The obligatory Top/Plan switch to Edit 2D Profiles is a serious PAIN though!!

IMVHO

Andrew

Edited by AndiACD
Link to comment
  • 0

All I know is that since the implementation of the screen/layer plane there seem to be many more problems.

DXF export, STL export, displaced objects and symbols while editing, erroneous viewport behaviour, text not printing properly, viewports not exporting all the information etc....

I have been using VW for many years and although there are times when there maybe user error, I am normally fairly adept at using the software but since 2010 my workflow has slowed down, even though I have taken the trouble to learn new approaches to accommodate the 'improvements'.

Link to comment
  • 0

OK... My head is smoking from overload! I still convinced that the "Planes" interface is too complicated. I'll admit that being able to draw like Jonathan Pickup shows in his Archoncad podcast 128 is nice, and maybe someday I'll embrace that method, but for now I don't draw that way. I'm use to drawing my shapes as 2D objects, extruding them, and then placing them where they go in the 3D space. I'm willing to learn new tricks, but not if the process causes me to spin my wheels trying to figure out why objects don't behave as expected.

I can see the value of using screen plane if everything I draw is 2D, and layer plane if everything I draw is 3D, and working plane if I need to draw relative to a surface other than say the ground plane (but all objects drawn in working plane are 3D). But that all needs to be simplified in my opinion. Here's another suggestion: How about all drawn objects are 3D if drawn in a 3D view, and all objects are 2D if drawn in a 2D view, and then if you need to change them to the other way that is done in the OIP.

Link to comment
  • 0

you can set the active layer plane, on the View Bar. Why not set the active plane to screen plane when you need screen plane, and then set the active plane to Layer Plane when you need layer plane?

Thank you for mentioning the podcast, you might notice that the Active Plane is Layer Plane, until you set a working plane, then the active plane is automatically set to working plane.

So, if you set the active plane to Screen Plane, Vectorworks will work old school, until you set a working plane. But then, why set the working plane if you want to draw in screen plane?

Those of you that subscribe to the Vectorworks Subscription, please look at the blog on Screen plane, Layer plane and working plane see the blog here .

Also look at the podcast122 (February 2011) which was a recorded movie from the Beyond beginner session focusing on screen plane, layer plane and working plane.

Link to comment
  • 0
you can set the active layer plane, on the View Bar. Why not set the active plane to screen plane when you need screen plane, and then set the active plane to Layer Plane when you need layer plane?

That would be great if the layer/screen plane didn't self-select depending on which tool you choose i.e the mirror tool to name but one. Also the working plane has a habit of deselecting and then not showing up in the drop down menu at all after the tool is selected which normally means using the working plane tool to reselect it again. If you're not watching for this sort of auto-erroneauos behaviour it can be really confusing not to mention frustrating.

Link to comment
  • 0

This was what i was trying say say in a previous post. This morning i was trying to Edit parts of an old Symbol and VW turned it into a generic solid so i went back to try and sort it out and found after selecting Screen to view one of the 2D objects, then Front View, when hitting 1 on the N? keypad to return to Left Isometric i was presented with an upside down Rear Left Isometric view instead and when i went to the OIP to see if i could get out of this with Screen or Layer the only option was 3D!

Now for those spacially aware astronauts amoungst us that have no problems with typing your weekly report whilst training in the "Vomit Comet", good luck to you, but i would prefere to be able to use VW firstly as i was able to prior to the Screen/Layer Phenomenon, Then, and only then, throw in the new capabilities once they work flawlessly without needing to select them.

i escaped by endlessly Undooooing BTW!

Andi

P.S. i should point out that it was the Objects, about 10 of them that had been simultainiously reorientated in the X & Z Planes, not simply the view. All N? Keys showed the same and the Undo readout suggested i hadn't inadvertently caused it . . . . .

Edited by AndiACD
Link to comment
  • 0

Let me reinforce my rant:

There is no consistency to any of these planes. ZERO.

To reinforce what others have said:

Nemetschek has changed the way I've worked for what 18 years? It's been changed to a more complex, less intuitive, arbitrary, bug filled sac of ... hammers AND DID NOT LET US KNOW ABOUT IT & the reaction from on high is either silence or SUCK IT UP PRINCESS THERE IS NO SANTA!

Mike, respectfully, I take your point about PoV editing but this is not small potatoes. I can't go back to my caveman ways because the software keeps changing planes in an arbitrary way. Furthermore the 2D Poly that goes into making up a 3D object cannot be edited relative to other objects.

As Andi, GWS & Bruce have said, this is so-called upgrade sucks billable hours like an area drain.

To whom should I address my invoice to at Nemetschek?

Link to comment
  • 0

.. oh, & one more thing. When a series of objects are imported, VW assigns them to either Layer or Screen why exactly? Oh and guess what? one may not select everything & change it to one or another EVERY BLESSED ITEM NEEDS TO BE INDIVIDUALLY SELECTED BY TYPE TO ENSURE IT IS EITHER Screen or Layer. Thanks Dudes, thanks a whole lot! Not bad enough you've helped me waste a day I'll be at it again tomorrow & perhaps the next doing frustrating busy work that I can't bill a client for. So again, where can I send the invoice to?

Link to comment
  • 0

Get's my back up too Jim . . . and i'm not even working on a foreign file. It's just a VW 2009 and i am still having to redraw every single Object/Symbol/Component because if i'm stupid enough to want to Edit anything that up til yesterday was sketchy, but it got through, now VW constantly complains that "the item you have tried to create can't be computed" . . . . . .

BUT yesterday it was fine! What happened since then that now makes VW as thick as two short planks. i can't say i actually know, but the deeper into the new Planes Enigma i am pushed the more it seems like they might have a lot to do with it.

Sorry guys, remove the two new Planes and combine all the new good special effects that are of some use into the old Single Working Plane VR!

Edited by AndiACD
Link to comment
  • 0

I actually like the option of two planes, layer and screen, and the way it was implemented. I think it was a good attempt at keeping the old users happy and the new users/old users who want to be able to work in a 3D view happy. The problem is that it doesn't work. I can't count how many times it arbitrarily has changed from screen to layer plane all by itself. And I've given up trying to edit extrudes, etc., because when you enter them it flings you all over the place. And even if the original object was created as screen plane, once inside the extrude it turns into a layer plane object on its own. It is way too buggy. But if they ever can get it stabilized and working properly (which isn't going to happen for version 2011 - I've been a user since minicad 5 and I've never seen a mincad/vectorworks release that didn't take a minimum of a year and a half to have even a semi-stable version, and with one year releases, you can kiss goodbye any chance of ever having a stable version again, period). But, bugs aside, I still think it's a pretty good, and powerful, idea.

Link to comment
  • 0

OK, let me see if i can explain where my frustration stems from.

In 2009 i select a View: Keypad 4=Left, i double click the Line Tool, in the dialogue i type a length 20.5mm, i choose the end i want the anchor, type the Angle 90? and then the Coordinates X 29.3, Y -12.9 and Hey Presto! a Line shows up exactly where i expect it to!

Now if i follow the same procedure in 2011 in a Symbol, Edit Mode, the Plane Dropdown shows blank so i click it and it shows Symbol Definition(i think, no Layer, no Screen option) there are no Silly pink boxes so i just go ahead thinking all is well and click OK.

No Line! At least not where i expect it! The OIP suggests it is where i want it, but Zoom out and it's been planted in another Country! Miles from where i want it!

Tried Click and Drag with Line Tool and it switches to Layer Plane and instead of a Vertical Line i got one stuck to the Working Plane along the X Axis instead of the Z Axis where i want it.

i understand the concept being aimed for, but it doesn't work.

If we MUST have these time wasting new Planes added, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give me a "View Plane" option that acts like the real world and gives me back the intuitive format i was accustomed to that always did exactly what i wanted and expected from a CAD tool and not one that messes about with a concept that just doesn't exist in any TD world.

CAD Software should be nothing more than a screen interpretation of a piece of paper with the ability to see what i draw in 3D. Other packages seem to have understood this, so Please accept that parallel dimensions that throw everything on it's head are not needed . . . . . at least i don't.

Edited by AndiACD
Link to comment
  • 0

Why do I not even hear crickets chirping from Nemetschek on this BMW? Just incase you think this is just chatter, here are the facts:

Two clients I'm doing consulting work for, whom I've convinced to upgrade licences rather than use Solid Works, are 10x's more frustrated than I am. I have relationships built over years of consulting work for these two firms & they are both looking at me for an answer; & I don't have any. The result will likely be I loose both as clients, they will hire Solid Works trainers & leave VW as a toy to plan decks for the homes of the principals.

So Nemetschek looses two upgrades over the next whatever time frame, Boo Hoo. I loose this training biz & a good portion (if not all) of the design work, Boo Hoo. So I'm wondering if I don't just concentrate on Sketch Up & stop being an advocate for VW. This after almost 20 years using the software. Nemetschek needs to know that this is not a minor frustration, this is a major blunder, that needs to fixed. And just so you know, I can't wait until the next iteration of the software. So yeah whatever ventures fail often on the little things.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...