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Renderworks 2011 versus Renderworks 2010 better or worse?

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Ok so I have signed up for VSS to keep up to date with all the latest updates to the 3D environment and the render engine from Cinema 4D because 2010 was crawling on some of the exterior landscape renders I was doing. I am now running 2010 and 2011 back to back to see if all this 64 bit C4D engine inspired speed has taken my 8 core monster iMac to the point where all my renders happen in the blink of an eye.

Well, that's my first gripe. 2011 is actually quite a bit slower than 2010 on some of my old renders.

But that's ok because the standard of the 2011 renders is so much better that it makes 2010's renders look like something from 1972. Right?

Hmmmm, I am going to say no and for the following reasons:

Now I appreciate that this can get a bit subjective but I was really starting to get into environment lighting and HDRI's in 2010 which gave very nice results. They strangled the life out of the run times (5 to 10 times increase in FQR render times when turning off ambient lighting and turning on environment lighting) but COMPLETELY transformed the renders. I had finally cracked the whole render workflow. Build, design and model with ambient and a light source and FQR will run like a scalded whippet, then flip on the environment lighting and have a quick brew while the Mac dusts it all with that HDRI magic. Very happy I was apart from the fact that I wanted the HDRI renders to run at the same speed as the non HDRI renders. Radiosity was just a waste of menu space.

So imagine how thrilled I was when I heard about the new 64 bit C4D render engine being 5 - 7 times faster than the old Lightwave powered one. I nearly choked on my cornflakes. I resisted the temptation to run down the street kissing strangers and thanking God and bought it. And VSS. Which, with hindsight, seems to stand for "Vapourware Sales Secured"...

I will just pause now, point my finger deliberately and accusingly at Nemetschek and loudly say, "shame on you". Releasing a beta of your software, pretending it is finished and then getting your customers to debug it for you is the kind of thing that would even have made Bill Gates wince in the 90's. If I had deleted 2010 I would have no clients left now because all my plants had a layer of what looked like snow all over them until SP2 came out and fixed it. Yes that was SP2 not SP1...

Even now we have reached the giddy heights of SP2 I still use 2010 for pretty much everything, in spite of the fact that it is also riddled with bugs and seems to have been abandoned by the Nemetschek bug fixers so will probably stay that way forever, because at least I know where the bugs are.

But this is not the main reason why Renderworks 2011 is better or worse that Renderworks 2010, no it is something far more depressing.

Somehow in the move from Lightwave based Renderworks 2010 to Cinema 4D base Renderworks 2011 the magic of the HDRI / environment lighting has gone. With or without all this light bouncing radiosity replacement nonsense the lovely sense of tangibility and texture has gone and everything just looks like plastic.

To prove this I attach four files below; 2010 with and without HDRI and 2011 with HDRI using environment lighting and 2011 with HDRI using indirect lighting (one bounce because it makes no difference on exterior scenes). The 2011 files have the HDRI strength doubled because, as I am sure you all know, 2011 needs a lot more light to be properly lit than 2010.

I have showed these to several people and without exception they have picked the 2010 HDRI as the best looking render. Identical file, identical settings apart from the HDRI strength and pretty similar render times. I'm sure there are loads of tweaks that I could do to improve the render /scene generally, and I have indeed since done so, so please don't muddy this up by criticising the composition of the render, just comment on the quality of the lighting / shadow / general feel that each render engine manages to extract from an identical scenario.

This doesn't seem like a bug. This seems like the render engine on 2011 is, subjectively, worse.

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I think I would tend to agree that your HDRI in 2010 has more feel to it. I have reservations about using that to declare the new renderworks engine worse. It's certainly improved in many areas. Is there any way to goose up the rendering quality in 2011, more bounces, soft shadowing?

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Honestly guys I have tried maxing out everything in Custom Renderworks (almost no appreciable difference when you go above "all medium" except for a massive increase in render time), doing everything at four bounces (this is just a COMPLETE waste of time, everything just becomes flat and bland, all subtleties are lost. Environment Lighting is definitely better), soft shadows only make a difference once the model is already looking pretty good, for the slightly bland look that 2011 gives it just makes it look like they are not working very well rather than adding quality, plus I don't know how they work with HDRI backgrounds and apart from that there isn't anything that I wouldn't do to improve things in Renderworks 2010 so there is no incremental benefit. I have attached proof of what I am talking about in the four files above and this is after weeks of trying.

I have no reservations whatsoever in declaring the 2011 Renderworks engine worse than Renderworks 2010 and I am really pissed off that after all the hype that came with it that I am demonstrably better off with last year's engine. Renderworks is not Cinema 4D, it's a part of Vectorworks that costs hundreds of pounds that has the sole purpose of making the 3D models that you build in Vectorworks look good. A better engine makes the models look better. Ideally better AND faster but it's the end result that counts and you always have OpenGl for quick and dirty stuff (and you get it if you don't buy Renderworks too) so speed is of secondary importance. It's all about the end product and 2010 DEFINITELY looks better. I don't want a faster engine that gives blander results. To add insult to injury FQR in 2011 is SLOWER on pretty much all my renders that it was in 2011. Progress? Oh yeah but just in reverse..

I have read an awful lot of stuff from people saying how good 2011 is compared to 2010 but whenever you see two renders compared there are some very obvious differences between them either in the textures / size / blurriness / colour / some other significant detail and you are not looking at comparable renders. My files here are the first and only DIRECT comparison I have seen anywhere on the web and they prove conclusively that 2011 is worse than 2010.

If anyone out there thinks I am wrong then prove it. I would (REALLY) love to know how I can get 2011 to at least match my 2010 results never mind improve on them. The clients I deal with have come to expect a certain level of finish and it just isn't possible to achieve it with 2011. And that is 2011 after TWO service packs..

In fact I'm calling out Nemetschek here and asking them directly. I have spent a lot of money on your products and I am extremely disappointed. If I am wrong then post some Vectorworks files on here in both 2010 and 2011 format with a detailed description of the settings used to achieve an equivalent or better exterior HDRI render (I use Landmark so it's all exteriors) in Renderworks 2011 than Renderworks 2010 that could be reproduced by anyone with Renderworks 2011. If you do I'll be happy to eat my words with a healthy dose of humility.

If you don't I'll start posting my files all over the internet and in every forum to do with Vectorworks until you do. I am feeling seriously ripped off here and I think everyone else will once they see what is really going on.

As the Eagles so succinctly put it, "Do Something"

As a postscript I have bought, in desperation, Sketchup pro 8.0 and had a look at all the render engines that you can plug in. I attach another set of files for you to peruse to see the level of render you can get for FREE. Kerkythea even has an unbiased mode that can get close to Maxwell Render levels of quality and it costs precisely nothing.

If these guys can do it why can't you?

Edited by allthebestoneshavegone

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Firstly, I will 100% disagree. Lightworks engine was and is the worst engine I've worked with and I would never go back to it. I am using C4D v10 with Vray at present but I started with just C4D about 5/6 years ago.

1. C4D is faster. Period.

2. C4D has better quality.

3. C4D handles larger geometry easier. Especially with GI.

4. C4D renders features such as material blur faster.

5. etc., etc.

Given I don't use vw2011 with the C4D v11.5 render engine however based on the v10 I use, it's suprior. All my renders have Global Illumination (Radiosity) which wasn't possible with the vw2010 Lightworks engine.

Identical file, identical settings apart from the HDRI strength and pretty similar render times.

I wouldn't say "identical settings" because your 2010 version is just raytraced (without Radiosity) and 2011 has "one bounce" which is radiosity-that's unfair and definately renders will look different.

Also you say "pretty similar render times"-I would say this is amazing because 2011 rendered with Radiosity whereas 2010 just did a plain render in the same amount of time.

My 2c.

:grin:

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Hello allthebestoneshavegone,

I appreciate your comments and frustrations with Renderworks, and your comparisons of your experiences between 2010 and 2011. I think much of your experiences are related to a number of factors, including a lack of new learning resources from us to help you as a user benefit from the new rendering capabilities and qualities in 2011. However, we have just added a new free resource for users on our website. The Renderworks Getting Started Guide written for Nemetschek Vectorworks by long time Architect, trainer, user, and author Dan Jansenson can be found at http://www.nemetschek.net/training/free_resource.php

It is very well written, and is easy to follow along quickly with the accompanying exercise files.

We are working on additional resources continually in an effort to help you all be more successful with the Vectorworks product line. I hope you find the new Getting Started Guide to be a good aid in helping you learn approaches that will maximize your use of Renderworks 2011.

There are a couple of additional topics in the Vectorworks Knowledgebase which you might find helpful:

Lighting Migration Tips http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/821/Migration+Tips+-+Vectorworks+2011+-+Lighting

Texture Migration Tips

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/832/Migration+Tips+-+Vectorworks+2011+-+Textures

As I said, there is more to come. I hope you find these first few items useful. Please feel free to message me with further questions. We're more than happy to understand your challenges and try and help.

Best Regards,

Jeremy Powell

Director Product Marketing

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I have read an awful lot of stuff from people saying how good 2011 is compared to 2010...........

I'm one of those people.

If you don't I'll start posting my files all over the internet and in every forum to do with Vectorworks until you do.

for a start why don't you post the file here for the scene you showed and let anyone here interested have a go?

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Shaun,

Firstly, I will 100% disagree. Lightworks engine was and is the worst engine I've worked with and I would never go back to it.

Ok prove it.

I am using C4D v10 with Vray at present but I started with just C4D about 5/6 years ago.

1. C4D is faster. Period.

2. C4D has better quality.

3. C4D handles larger geometry easier. Especially with GI.

4. C4D renders features such as material blur faster.

5. etc., etc.

You are obviously struggling with the most basic concepts of communication. Go back and read my posts again, or perhaps judging by your post, for the first time, look at the files attached and show me some proof that HDRI renders in 2011 can look the same or better than in 2010. If I wanted to know about C4D I would have asked.

Given I don't use vw2011 with the C4D v11.5 render engine

Really? then why are you wasting my time?

it's suprior. All my renders have Global Illumination (Radiosity) which wasn't possible with the vw2010 Lightworks engine.

It's actually spelt "superior", probably not a word you get to use that often judging by your post. Wrong again, Radiosity was possible in Renderworks 2010 it just wasn't feasible.

I wouldn't say "identical settings" because your 2010 version is just raytraced (without Radiosity) and 2011 has "one bounce" which is radiosity-that's unfair and definately renders will look different.

Shaun, it is spelt "definitely". You really didn't read my post, did you? I attached 2011 files with both indirect and environment lighting, and told you what had changed, ie the HDRI strength was doubled and that it was one bounce when running with indirect lighting. And the whole point of it was to show how different they were.

.

Also you say "pretty similar render times"-I would say this is amazing because 2011 rendered with Radiosity whereas 2010 just did a plain render in the same amount of time.

Your render time argument is like saying, "I work down the road but commute via Scotland on a private jet and it only takes half an hour longer"...? waste of effort for no benefit. The renders still look worse.

You know what, Shaun, you are obviously too emotionally involved with C4D to look at anything resembling criticism rationally so I would ask you not to post in this thread again. Is that simple enough for you?

.

My 2c.

:grin:

Makes you wonder what you get for 1c....

Jeremy I will deal with last.

propstuff

I'm one of those people.

You said it, not me.

for a start why don't you post the file here for the scene you showed and let anyone here interested have a go?

Because that completely misses the point of my post. The moment everyone gets my files they will start fiddling with the textures and composition and it will just turn into an arbitrary aesthetic battle of textures and composition that has absolutely nothing to do with my point. It has NOTHING to do with the basic flaw in 2011's HDRI lighting which has destroyed my workflow. Why don't you just go away and set up a simple exterior HDRI scene and render it in 2010 and 2011? You really can't miss the drop in quality. And that's the point

Will someone please post some images/files/reproducible settings that either disprove or concur with my point?

Which brings me neatly to...

Jeremy,

I have been very specific about my problem and what I want you to do. Your response is unfocussed and just seems to list anything to do with Renderworks that you have on the web. I have read all of them and I could not have done the renders that I attached, what seems like weeks ago, above if I did not already know this. If you had read my posts and the articles you would know this too, I can only surmise that you have not.

To remedy this I attach the most relevant section again below here. Please make sure you read this and my posts above and look at all the files attached (leave the Sketchup ones if you don't want to, unbiased rendering would be lovely but one step at a time..). I will check in again over the next few days and I eagerly await your considered response.

In fact I'm calling out Nemetschek here and asking them directly. I have spent a lot of money on your products and I am extremely disappointed. If I am wrong then post some Vectorworks files on here in both 2010 and 2011 format with a detailed description of the settings used to achieve an equivalent or better exterior HDRI render (I use Landmark so it's all exteriors) in Renderworks 2011 than Renderworks 2010 that could be reproduced by anyone with Renderworks 2011. If you do I'll be happy to eat my words with a healthy dose of humility.

If you don't I'll start posting my files all over the internet and in every forum to do with Vectorworks until you do. I am feeling seriously ripped off here and I think everyone else will once they see what is really going on.

As the Eagles so succinctly put it, "Do Something"

Finally, to all the people who are very kindly writing me private emails and offering to sort my file out for me, please stop. Just go away and try to match my external HDRI results in any file you like rendered in both 2010 and 2011 so that you can understand what I am talking about.

regards,

Al

Edited by allthebestoneshavegone

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Hi Al,

Welcome to the forum.

You might be right, I don't believe so, and I don't have the time right now to take up your challenge but you raise some very interesting questions that I'm sure will benefit us all in their resolution whatever that is.

To answer your question in the first post I too find your 2010 renders more appealing.

After two days however on the forum you might find that tempering your anger towards members produces more meaningful responses from other users who, as you know, contribute to the forum gratis. Is it useful to point up a typo when trying to be taken seriously for a valid complaint?

I look forward to the topic's development.

ps- why not upload your file for rework? After all it is the baseline you offered.

Edited by bcd

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bcd,

After two days however on the forum you might find that tempering your anger towards members produces more meaningful responses from other users who, as you know, contribute to the forum gratis.

Just because it's free doesn't mean it's good. I think you would be better served telling people to actually read the post rather than just use it to get onto their pet hobby horse.

I have a serious complaint here and I want a serious response. I'm actually showing you all the respect of starting right here in your forums so that you can all be aware of it and comment on it rather than conduct the whole affair privately through a lawyer. To get all hippy-geeky about it I espouse the concepts of open source, free debate and freedom of speech all the more closely because I have worked in places where there isn't any. And I say that in full recognition of the fact that I have just said that free isn't necessarily good.

There is a big difference between hippy-geeky and limp wristed liberalism that has led to political correctness as well. It is destroying the planet and, judging by your signature, you being Irish should be standing up for freedom of speech more than the next guy. I am actually angry with Nemetschek for taking my money, lying to me and wasting days of my, precious, time. Not to mention nearly costing me a shedload of business as well. You all need to know about this and, unless you all work for Nemetschek which I am starting to wonder about as I write, you should be just as interested in getting to the bottom of it as I am.

ps- why not upload your file for rework? After all it is the baseline you offered.

I didn't, you know. In fact I explicitly said I didn't want to. I want all of you to prove that this is a problem to yourselves and then get something done about it.

And, to be clear, if anyone else makes some random, unconnected and unhelpful comment without having even tried to address the problem I have raised, I won't be any more polite than I have been. Probably a lot less. Although you might have a point about the spelling, bit pedantic....

This is not aimed at you, bcd, you are one of the few responders who actually seems to have got the point, I'm looking forward to your next post.

Al

Edited by allthebestoneshavegone

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Hello allthebestoneshavegone:

I'm sorry you're disappointed with Renderworks 2011.

Have you contacted your distributor about this problem? Note that this forum is not customer support, it is a VW user community forum to share information, and sometimes get help from employees who monitor the forum. If you want a refund for the Renderworks portion of the subscription that would be something to discuss with your distributor.

Regarding your first images I see more contrast in the 2010 image and the background location is shifted in 2011 so that the pink color is distracting. The grass color is less yellow and more blue in 2011. Renderworks 2011 is brighter-looking. RW 2011 has correct gamma correction built-in which account for differences in image tone, also ambient has more of an effect in 2011 because of the correct gamma, perhaps too much and it flattens the contrast. Ambient can be adjusted downward to give you more contrast.

See here, the description of gamma correction, called Linear Workflow (open up "New CINEMA 4D Studio R12 Rendering Features"):

http://www.maxon.net/products/cinema-4d-studio/new.html

.vwx files are essential to duplicate and possibly improve the rendered result.

Edited by Dave Donley

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Dave,

Thanks for writing,

Hello allthebestoneshavegone:

I'm sorry you're disappointed with Renderworks 2011.

Me too

Have you contacted your distributor about this problem? Note that this forum is not customer support, it is a VW user community forum to share information, and sometimes get help from employees who monitor the forum. If you want a refund for the Renderworks portion of the subscription that would be something to discuss with your distributor.

I am not going to take this up with my distributor because it is nothing to do with them, they just sell what you give them. I have invested too much time and money to just junk all this stuff. It's GHQ that needs to do something, and I really wanted to see what actual users thought about the problem too. Interesting that you mention refunds though, doesn't look as if you are particularly confident..

Regarding your first images I see more contrast in the 2010 image and the background location is shifted in 2011 so that the pink color is distracting. The grass color is less yellow and more blue in 2011. Renderworks 2011 is brighter-looking. RW 2011 has correct gamma correction built-in which account for differences in image tone, also ambient has more of an effect in 2011 because of the correct gamma, perhaps too much and it flattens the contrast. Ambient can be adjusted downward to give you more contrast.

See here, the description of gamma correction, called Linear Workflow (open up "New CINEMA 4D Studio R12 Rendering Features"):

http://www.maxon.net/products/cinema-4d-studio/new.html

.vwx files are essential to duplicate and possibly improve the rendered result.

I am not using ambient lighting just HDRI. Ambient looks flat and dull in 2010 never mind 2011. The background in 2011 is another "feature" that has proved quite irksome. The backgrounds in 2010 all work very well but in 2011 they all seem massively over saturated and, somehow, at a different angle. Basically they don't work very well.

I have read the gamma correction description "Linear Workflow" and I think that could be where the problem is. It just seems to spread too much light around and removes all the "feel" of the render. Can you turn it off?

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Renderworks 2011 and rw2010 are totally different. It's like having someone moving over from AutoCAD to Vectorworks, it's a totally different way of thinking. One has to attack a composition from a totally different angle.

Anyone having problems with rw2011 has to just leave rw2010 behind and move forward and more importantly accept change.

My 1c.

PS.: Beware any spelling errors above could cause visual impairment

:D lol

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It's not spelling mistakes that make you go blind, Shaun. Never mind I'm sure you'll discover that for yourself after a few more posts.....

Edited by allthebestoneshavegone

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the Blind Expert

See image #17 in the slide show http://www.nemetschek.net/2011/new_features.php

If the new rendering is better than the old one... Well, judge yourselves!

As I have said above this is not a fair comparison, they have totally changed the lighting and the treatment of the glass. Look at my files above and see what really happens when you compare like with like

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Ok Ladies,

I have been having a private conversation with Mr Donley here off line because he seems to be the man who knows everything.

He obviously DOES work for Nemetschek so, instead of actually addressing the problem I had asked about he just showed me all the things that I already knew 2011 could do that 2010 couldn't (soft shadows, better backgrounds etc) and ignored my plaintive calls to actually answer my question.

Fair to say I was about to start calling my solicitor when my colleague saw one of Dave's renders and said, "Ooo that looks really good, better than normal" I moaned about the colours all being wrong and it looking like plastic but they just said " yeah but I like it"

And this is the head designer.

So there you have it, thanks Dave for being so pig headed and obdurate. I am never going to get my nice atmospheric HDRI environment renders because, as I have shown, 2011 can't do it.

But it can make your renders look like a Vodka advert and that, though it ain't my taste, does have its place.

QED

Edited by allthebestoneshavegone

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Al,

A little respect towards those who are willing to go out of there way to help you can go a long way. If you give these boards a chance, you may find them indispensable (as I and many other users do). Many regulars on these boards are very experienced and willing to help. Many are the most experienced Vectorworks users I know (in my 17+ years using Vectorworks).

As for your issue, why not upload your file? When moving older VW files to 2011, I did have to make some adjustments to textures and lighting, but I'm very happy with the results. How can we prove your point to ourselves when we don't have the same file you have?

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Matt,

As I said in some rambling moment of erudition above I really do respect the freedom of this site. But this has been a pretty abject failure. Not one has even tried to match my results despite me being infuriatingly clear about quite how simple they are to match. If I put my file up here all you will do (and by you I mean all of you) is stick it in 2011 and "improve" it so you like it. I honestly couldn't care less. Renderworks isn't rocket science and I have had a few weeks with it. I am happy that I know what I want, the only blinding realisation I have had is that it isn't the same as my designer @spit@.

You really don't need my file to prove this to yourself, Matt. Are you saying you have tried and can't match the results, that would be interesting, or is it just another case of can't be bothered to try it for yourself?

Here you go, Matt, a step by step guide to matching my results.

1) open Vectorworks 2010 and set up any some out door scene with a couple of Walls and some trees. Doesn't have to be Walls or trees of course, Matt, but for the less imaginative out there I thought I'd give them something to start with.

Do not have any HDRI lighting. Just ambient and a light source if you want. Render the scene in Final quality Renderworks.When you are done export the results to a PDF or jpeg.

2) go to View>lighting and turn off Ambient lighting then pick an HDRI background to give the model some environment lighting

3) Render the scene in FInal Quality Renderworks and export the result as a PDF or a jpeg

4) save the file

5) open the file in Vectorworks 2011

6) render the scene using no bounces (environment lighting) to get the most accurate comparison to 2010 and export the result as above

7) go to View>lighting and set the number of bounces to one

8) render the scene and export the result as above

Then post your PDFs so that the world can see them.

See don't need my file at all. You do need 2010 and 2011 which a large proportion of you probably don't have so you don't need to worry then.

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Oh forgot one thing, when you open the file in 2011 edit the HDRI background in the resource browser and stick the strength up to about 200%. this is the only bit where you have to fiddle around.

Al

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Al,

The problem with creating and rendering the file in VW 2010 is that the textures, lighting, and settings could be better suited for the RW 2010 engine. RW 2011 is completely different and, while NV has worked hard to try to translate those textures and settings to the new engine, there's only so much they can do. A true test would be to create the file in VW 2010, then recreate it in VW 2011 using all VW 2011 textures, etc. I don't mind helping out when I can, but I'm not going to spend the time recreating something to try to prove to myself your point and I have a feeling most others on this list won't either. How much do you expect for free help?

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Built the same scene in VW2010 & VW2011. Applied no textures so that I could see what the light was really doing. Used my own HDRI background (one that I've been using since VW2008) so that lighting would be "the same" in each case. Turned off ambient lighting so that the only thing lighting the scene is the HDRI. Rendered in FQRW (no bounces.) Exported to JPG.

VERY different renders.

VW2011 was faster.

You all can decide which one you like best, if any at all.

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"Fair to say I was about to start calling my solicitor when my colleague saw one of Dave's renders and said, "Ooo that looks really good, better than normal"

What? You mean that after all that you are NOT calling your solicitor? Here I've been hanging on, breathlessly waiting for the inevitable denouement and now you deprive me of the payoff I've been anticipating for so long.

Well I'm not taking this sitting down, rest assured. I have half a mind to call my OWN solicitor now. This is just intolerable.

Dan J.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!! (the sound of mad laughter!!!) Now I know how Dr. Frankenstein must have felt. Life, there is LIFE on this forum!!

Not you, Matt, unless you actually want to do something rather than just writing preachy posts and refusing to move you'll be as much use as someone who writes preachy posts and refuses to move. ie no use and slightly irritating to boot.

Danielj1, ah imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and you are almost getting it but it does read a bit like you are trying out this "humour" (humor?) thing for the first time. Reminds me of when I was a child, bless you

Bill, I don't how to put into words how much I appreciate what you did. You are the kind of man who wins wars, changes worlds and is probably devastatingly good looking and a massive hit with the chicks to boot. I would say I love you but Danielj1 would probably choke on his coffee in a puerile rush to make some incorrectly homophobic comment that would embarrass a 12 year old. And coffee coming out of your nose is not a good look. Hmm, I'm almost tempted...

Anyway, Bill you have totally restored my faith in free speech. THANK YOU. This is EXACTLY what I was after. Really like your HDRI as well, so does my designer and, roll on the drums please, pauses for effect....they preferred the 2010 render and so did I.

It seems churlish in the extreme to ask for more when you have already far exceeded what I was starting to expect I would get (ie nothing) but what I noticed on my renders was that the "bleaching out" effect is even worse with indirect lighting. Imagine me grovelling Oliver Twist like, could I have just one more, please, with indirect lighting set to one bounce? You don't have to I am eternally grateful for this and I am probably massively overstepping any sort reasonableness boundary here but it would be the final piece.

On a more prosaic note, I am starting to think, at the risk of Shaun desperately trying to give all of us another cent or two's worth of the sort of comments you get when you tell someone their girlfriend is ugly, that this is down to the C4D gamma correction Linear Workflow that Dave Donley mentioned above. Steady Shaun. I asked Dave if you could turn it off and haven't had a response yet. It just seems to put light everywhere and take all the feel away. Looks pretty much like a woman's face when she is halfway through her makeup. In fact I think this is the difference between the two. 2010 is like a naturally beautiful woman with no make up but 2011 is like a pretty girl who wipes out all her natural features with foundation and then applies an inch and a half of slap. Both attractive but only one is beautiful. That sounded a bit trite but I think you all know what I mean. Ok, not all of you, some of you are are probably rubbing your knees and thinking of porn because I mentioned women. Stop it, you'll go blind.

which reminds me...

PS.: Beware any spelling errors above could cause visual impairment

:D lol

It's not spelling mistakes that make you go blind, Shaun. Never mind I'm sure you'll discover that for yourself after a few more posts.....

All starting to make sense now, Shaun? Growing up is so difficult these days @sigh@

Anyhoo, now Bill has got the wagon rolling would anyone else like to get on board and have a go themselves?

[

Edited by allthebestoneshavegone

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Sorry for irritating you Al. You've made me realize that it's not nice to be rude and irritate people.

Best of luck to you.

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