jnr Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 So I haven't downloaded or ordered the new 2011 version however if the track record is consistent, we get more bells and whistles in the stair tool (are there still two of them?), but do we get any better stability? the 09 and 10 versions had schizoid stair tools that repeated stairs, made them disappear, caused them to shift arbitrarily into space and in general, stunk. I don't know how much time I wasted getting a simple switchback stair to work on a multistory building. And what's the point of having a stair tool which will insert a stair on one floor, but not appear on the floor above it (new in 2010). I mean isn't this the definition of a stair? Why have it? I hope someone at NNA has had the forethought in the last year to put both stair vendors in a locked room and make them produce one tool that works. I guess we'll see. Quote Link to comment
gScott Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 on the topic of the horrible stair tool, i've just discovered a very nasty glitch in the VW12.5 stair tool. our structural engineer saved us from hitting site with incorrect drawings when she noticed her section wouldn't match my plan... in this case the tool shows the wrong number of stairs in 2D, <1 tread shorter than it says it is, and who actually counts every tread?> the nasty reality rears its head toggling between 2D + 3D plan views, the stair jumps one tread longer, and doesn't fit the carefully planned space allowed for the flight. on this extremely tight site, the stair is a pivotal item + governs the geometry of all other rooms.... i wonder if my PI insurance would chip in if a screwup like this arrived on site? i know NNA wouldn't... and now who knows how many hours work tweaking everything to get it to work thanks for nothing NNA Quote Link to comment
jnr Posted September 15, 2010 Author Share Posted September 15, 2010 I feel your pain. did you make sure the check box for show the top tread was turned off? that could take you out at the knees as well. The stair tool blew even worse then than it does now. That being said, I would encourage you to upgrade. There are significant improvements in the software since 12.5 and despite its shortcomings it usually pays to upgrade. what I've learned since minicad 7 is never do it on the first release. Wait until the .1 release. my problem of late is that my usage of the software does not keep up with speed of the releases. In other words they're making significant improvements to keep up with the market yet I can't learn it fast enough to stay current. I don't use it as often in this worthless economy. You're now two to three releases behind and there's significant improvements which would easily save you the time of the cost of the upgrade, let alone the cost to correct the error in the field. In sum staying on top of it takes a time investment, getting several versions behind can also cost you. sounds like you have a good engineer. Finding a good one is well worth it. -J Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 (edited) my problem of late is that my usage of the software does not keep up with speed of the releases. In other words they're making significant improvements to keep up with the market yet I can't learn it fast enough to stay current. I don't use it as often in this worthless economy. -J I have to agree with you there however it is not only of late when I worked with Microstation a few years back we had the same, like having to learn a new program every year! After a couple of years you start getting tired of starting over! I've considered upgrading every other year however there are always improvements one can't live without for another year . Edited September 15, 2010 by Vincent C Quote Link to comment
gScott Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 jnr i have a series of viewports + section viewports to view the stair from all sides + dimensions to try to figure out what it's doing. toggling the top tread only makes it worse, it changes the 3D to match the 2D, but the stair doesn't reach the correct height anymore! i've narrowed it down to the fact that i have a 90? winder at the top of the flight, i.e. 2 treads to turn 90?, which it shows in 2D but seems incapable of getting right in 3D the 'upgrade-will-fix-it' mantra is nonsense. 12.5.3 was a serious upgrade to 12.0, yet the stair tool has a major technical defect. from the sounds of it the new stair does less than the V12.5 tried to do and is even less fit for use... hopefully, it doesn't also make mistakes... Quote Link to comment
jnr Posted September 15, 2010 Author Share Posted September 15, 2010 g: I guess I wasn't suggesting that upgrading would fix it. I do seem to recall however that in the case of the stair tool, especially when trying to do a more complex configuration, the added functionality in the later versions, specifically 12.5 forward, might get you where you want to go with less stress. What sticks in my craw is that we now have two stair tools with every conceivable iteration know to man instead of one. If one had to guess the older stair tool (the one you're frustrated with) which began as stable, simple code, was quickly given new belts and suspenders, is now slow and clunky; destabilized by bloated bell and whistle code. The new stair while sexy and seemingly stable (different vendor?), is worthless as it won't work in a multi-story building (at least in 2010). One may ask why have it if it can't satisfy the most fundamental aspect of its definition. My suggestion about upgrading, especially as far back as you are, is what you gain in productivity with improvements to the drafting environment, stair tool be dammed. For what its worth, you could always download the demo, see what you think then decide. Since I make heavy use of 3d and rendering, the radical increases in speed having switched vendors to cinema 4d from lightworks makes it worth while for me. The upgrade would pay for itself in time saved. That said, I'll switch when A) I have work and B) have the dough to pay for it. All of this is of course, moot if the economy doesn't improve. Quote Link to comment
gScott Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 jnr, i have a different problem to you slow to upgrade because i really want to feel i have outgrown a version, or because a new version has a totally compelling new feature i actually need and if the 2011 stair doesn't get to the upper level then it isn't a good reason for me to upgrade. the useful features of a stair is actually getting from one level to another, the upper level being as important to me as the lower level, but maybe i don't really understand stairs as well as NNA...> i'm also a bit nervous of upgrading now due to the unusual situation of too much work + no time to get up to speed with an upgrade... we'll see how 2011 is received + if things slack off i'll give it a go... Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 On a side note, I thought of an adequate way to overcome this for the time being until they get it working properly: How about they add an option in the stair dialog in which we can draft a 2D image (using a wireframe top view of the actual stair as a trace) which will represent the stair as a symbol in Top/plan view one story up. I know it is a work around however at least it then is connected/integrated to the stair and it is easy to draft and edit using the 3D stair as a trace. This option can even be useful in the future (when the stair tool actually works in this regard) as an option for those cases where different building standards or strange stair solutions cannot be solved with the standard stair tool and available annotations. Quote Link to comment
jmh Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 To get my stairs to show up on multiple levels I put them on a separate layer that I created called Mod-Stair (which is turned on in main and upper floors in viewports). If using the 'height by layer elevations' option, the lower level must be set at 'Mod-Stair' otherwise the stair will automatically be placed on whatever layer is selected there. It's definitely a struggle to get the results I want from the stair & railing tools. Hopefully these will be improved! Jen Quote Link to comment
gScott Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 vincent, the "2d-upper-level-trick" is exactly what the 12.5 stair does, and i guess the 20xx "old stair" still works the same way? if you look at the lower level in 3D the full stair is modelled regardless of any cut lines, but if you look at the upper level the stair from the lower level is not there at all, even though is does show in 2D... i suspect it is drawn in 2D by the PIO, as a calculated routine, rather than a hiddenline top view, because it wouldn't make mistakes between the 2D + 3D representations if it was just a rendering of a 3D. but i guess it would be slower to render than draw a calculated 2d? we live in hope, and frustration Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 True gideon, however it would be a nice addition to the new stair tool though (and probably not too complicated to add). Quote Link to comment
jnr Posted September 20, 2010 Author Share Posted September 20, 2010 It fascinates me that after what, four versions of this software, we're still having a conversation about the stability and functionality of one of the most fundamental components of architecture, that the company's response each time is to add more bells and whistles and make things more complex instead of simply providing something that WORKS (see recent other stair post). I spend more time screwing around fixing defective stairs (regardless of version) than just about any other task. This is getting old. Quote Link to comment
J Lucas Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 There are many things I like about Vectorworks, but the stair tools are near the bottom of my list of things I like least about VW. I have been trying to do some simple stairs in 2011. I am finding the same basic disfunctionality in the stair tools as in previous releases. Quote Link to comment
gScott Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 anyone notice the hush from messrs. anderson + ouellette, the two people who do, or should, know what is happening with the stair tool... Quote Link to comment
billtheia Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 It fascinates me that after what, four versions of this software, we're still having a conversation about the stability and functionality of one of the most fundamental components of architecture, that the company's response each time is to add more bells and whistles and make things more complex instead of simply providing something that WORKS (see recent other stair post). I spend more time screwing around fixing defective stairs (regardless of version) than just about any other task. This is getting old. I couldn't have said it better myself. Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Having worked with several of the worlds best cad apps i have never happened across a stair tool that is capable of doing everything we wish/ask for with respect to the 2D and 3D integration.......this leads me to believe that it must be a very complicated pio to develop. Not that this is an excuse to stop trying, but lets hope that NNA is the first to develop one soon......... Quote Link to comment
gester Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 anything new on this matter recently? the top floor still doesn't show the stair. i initially thought about the lacking visibility depth in the floor plans (especially the topmost one), but i can't either find out how to set it at all. i'm a bit lost here... thanks in advance for any clue. Quote Link to comment
gester Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 ok, i've found this one: http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=131020&Searchpage=4&Main=26717&Words=visibility+items+above&Search=true#Post131020 seems to work, although it's a bit clumsy workaround. rob Quote Link to comment
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