Vectorworks Architect 2010 Vs. Revit Architecture

[ERK]

Hi

I am hoping there is someone on here with experience in both the VW Architect and Revit Architecture software, that can help me make a decision on which to purchase and build a business with.

A little about me: I work in the stone and tile industry, here in SF, and deal with mainly high end custom builds. Recently I took a Revit Fundamentals course (a 3-day bootcamp), that went over the basics of using Revit. I have zero CAD experience, but have the build knowledge of what I need shown in my drawings, which will be used for design intent, shop drawings and submittals. Revit seemed easy to pick up in regards to the topics covered, but when I called the support line to get some insight on how to do some of the things I need, it seems there is a whole side to Revit that is not covered in the class.

I like the fact that you can change an item on one sheet, and it is automatically reflected on all the sheets, does VW do this as well? Creating elevations and sections is extremely easy and automatic, which I liked. The program seems to organize all your sheets on its own, which is great for a novice user like myself.

Here's the problem, I called the teacher that headed up the class I took and asked a few questions (BTW great that I think its great that I can contact someone for help). I basically told him that the environment that I work in is based off of the actual site conditions, not assumptions, where nothing is perfectly square, plumb or level and this needs to be reflected in my drawings since they are for the actual build. I also mentioned that, although the "out of the box" items are great, I would need to be able to create and alter the "families". This led into what seemed like a lengthy process.

Here are some examples of what I will need to do on a regular basis.

Example 1: The tile patterns for the projects I am involved in are often designed by the owner, architect, designer etc, which means I would have to create my own family.

Example 2: Being that I work with stone slab, every project requires detailed shop drawings for the stone countertops, shower walls, stair treads, joint locations, cutout locations etc. When I asked about creating a custom edging profiles, I could not even understand the answer.

Example 3: The installer drawings I send out for tile and slab installs, need to show where walls are bowed, out of plumb etc. This will allow me to give them accurate control lines, float thicknesses at given points etc. Again it seemed like a headache to adjust the walls and floors to reflect actual site conditions.

Example 4: I will not necessarily need to draw an entire room, or house for that matter, an would prefer not to if I do not need to. In many instances I only need to submit what is within my scope of work. I have no idea if Revit can even do this, or how complicated it would be. Say I am sending a carved fireplace to the shop, they do not need to see all the surrounding items and rooms, and are only concerned with the fireplace and its details. Can VW do this for me? Something like this would need to be rendered, but not the whole house.

Basically I was left with the feeling that Revit is geared towards the front end of a project, where everything is drawn with perfect world assumptions. Is this true for VW as well? Am I looking at the wrong type of software?

On another note, would I need VW Fundamentals or Architect?

Thanks

Eric

PS: Sorry for all the questions, but I need to make this purchase fairly quickly, and what I purchase I am basically stuck with due to the cost.

[Ray Libby]

I do shop drawings for custom cabinetry, very similar to you. You will find Vectorworks to be much more flexible compared to Revit. Every example you mentioned is possible in VW. If you would like, send me a private message and I'll send you a PDF example of my drawings.

[Christiaan]

Eric, you will hear a lot of people here talk about the flexibility of Vectorworks. But what you can also expect is more manual lifting. Vectorworks is not nearly as automated as the likes of Revit or ArchiCAD. For example, while there is now some intelligence built into the drawing management system it certainly won't "organise your sheets on its own" in the same way that Revit or ArchiCAD will. Vectorworks caters to some diverse industries and this is reflected in the interface.

[islandmon]

As you know the initial starting conditions will determine your level(s) of success.

With VW you can easily set-up Templates with Libraries for each of your job categories and clients.

Then you can utilize the Templates to facilitate your daily production.

The example workflows ( #1-#4 ) are standard accomplishments with VW.

Over many years I have participated in numerous projects with similar eclectic demands.

Additionally, the knowledge base entangled with these Forums provides Users with

hands-on dynamic CAD resource support.

[ERK]

Christian

Thanks for the reply.

How difficult is it in VW to alter and add custom items? I got the feeling that with Revit, the automation is what actually made it harder to stray from what is given to you in the box. Also, how does VW perform when you need to do a simple 2D drawing?

Thanks

Eric

[Christiaan]

These are certainly things you need to weigh up. It depends a lot?at least for now?on what type of work you'll be doing.

Vectorworks has the advantage when it comes to creating custom 3D objects, but for how long? And if it ever loses this advantage will it have caught up with dedicated building modellers like ArchiCAD and Revit on the automated front? I have my doubts.

For the type of architecture we do (low rise residential urban blocks) I've found ArchiCAD to be about 3x faster than VW (with far less errors and co-ordination issues). For 2D production drawings I also find ArchiCAD faster. The interface is simply more focused on the needs of architects. Where VW shines on the 2D front is design presentation drawings.

[Bob Holtzmann]

Vw is very capable in 2D CAD import and generation. I have more than once relied on DWG and PDF imports into Vw Architect. These are usually product details I download from Arcat.com. Not only can DWG, SKP and PDF detail files get imported, but the linework can be edited. This functionality is denied in Revit.

Since the focus of your work is on CAD details and shop drawings, and not BIM, it appears that Vw Architect would best meet your needs. Vw is also the easiest to learn, with the help of training manuals and videos. I know several architects who selected Vw for this reason alone.

To answer your last question, Architect is better suited than Fundamentals for architecturally detailing cabinets, counters and stairs.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Bob-H

[Wes Macaulay]

There's a few things to consider. Revit is about twice the price of Vectorworks. If you're doing a lot of building modeling, as Christiaan notes, apps geared towards building modeling like ArchiCAD or Revit will generate construction docs faster than CAD-based apps like Vectorworks.

These apps are debatably harder to learn than Vectorworks - as you've realized, making families in Revit is one more thing you've got to learn to handle all the different conditions and designs that you're pushing out.

And to be honest - you're really needing more of a CAD solution. Revit and ArchiCAD both do 2D CAD very well, but it's an adjunct feature to what they're designed to do - design and document buildings.

From that perspective Vectorworks or AutoCAD LT may be a better fit for you. Then, if you need the 3D, you can jump into it if you really need it. On the shop drawings front, you might find it easier to interoperate with AutoCAD and Revit-based consultants if you have AutoCAD, but Vectorworks generally puts out a better looking set of drawings. If you're graphically inclined, Vectorworks does shine in this regard. (AutoCAD LT is the 'light' version of AutoCAD at about $1500 vs $4000)

Hope this helps!

[Lloyd NB]

I have some experience with both Revit 2009 and VW 2010 Architect.. .more with Revit at this time so this may not be worth too much to you.

No software is going to acknowledge actual conditions on the job site as well as your own notes on your drawings will. This is the disclaimer missing from all architectural software shipping boxes and most training classes but it is the known variable in all places where stuff is drawn for buildings. For remodels, of course, factor this X10 or so. Drawings or software will not close the gap left by not being hands-on on the jobsite. But you already know that.

I'd say that VW Architect will probably be best for you because I know what a genuine pain in the butt making families can be in Revit. What you seem to want is a CAD-accurate 3D modeling program, not necessarily a BIM application, but it would be nice for you to have schedules etc. to auto generate. This describes VW better it seems. It will be some work to get what you are describing in 3D from either application, but Revit will be a lot more work for the tasks you outline than will VW.

Your Ex 1. No real need for a family in order to create tile patterns...unless I miss some subtle implications. Plain and good 3D or even 2D modeling skills should do this for you it seems. Tile is such an item-specific discipline. VW has array and copy commands that should do this for you well enough and possibly can count the full tiles etc as well without going to the trouble of families in Revit. How many tiles fit horizontally on a wall? Just divide a line drawn on the wall, by a certain tile dimemsion module, to find out. Whats left over is field cut. Arrange the cuts to suit graphically in the viewport and add a note to "verify on site", of course. VW does great graphics for these elevations and then you can slap them onto a sheet with cabs or fixtures in front and you have a presentation drawing. Less than 1/2 the cost of Revit.

EX 2. More detailed and perhaps a little bit advanced 3D modeling, but nothing more. You could be modeling cheese or stone in Vectorworks but don't need a family in order to do it. If you don't need to refer to vertical relative levels where the stone is located on the site - graphically - then no need for Revit here either. If graphic location on the site or in the building is required, then Revit has a slight edge in simplicity of getting the information into a drawing.

Ex 3. Who actually does this on a drawing - except with a note? Unless it is a hand drawing perhaps or very extreme where a template is absolute necessary? Got to make a template and verify the conditions on site. If needed, there are a number of drawing tools in VW to draw a curved or out of plumb wall - 2D and somewhat 3D, but the output is only as good as the input. This is the same law as for being on site with the tile and materials too. VW actually has the upper hand here when it is needed.

Ex 4. VW can do this quite well, Revit is overkill for this. VW is a natural choice here.

I agree with Wes above - seems that what you need is a 2D application instead of 3D -mostly. Vectorworks certainly is this. Growing into the 3D of VW in the future is an option and it will certainly make visualization easier for you. Oh yes, and VW makes passable renderings of your 3D models of fireplaces etc. You will need to learn the art of placing image files (like flat photos) of stone and tiles etc. on the 3D geometry of the model in order for your tiles and textures to show in the renderings. VW is easier here too. you can actually take a photo of a special tile and "apply" it onto the 3D geometry. It will render, with a little tweaking, in a very convincing manner. You'll be a hero (or heroine!) with your clients.

Good luck. VW is a natural choice here.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Lloyd NB