"That's why you should be an artist before you are a Photoshop user"

[Christiaan]

Anyone who has seen some of the new and updated automation tools in Photoshop CS5 knows that it is going to make a big impact.

Here's one updated feature that makes it far easier to refine an edge, such as around a model's hair:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/04/video_selecting_hair_with_refine_edge_in_cs5.html

Or and even better one, content aware fill:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/03/caf_in_ps.html

What I found interesting and relevant to Vectorworks development were some of the comments:

Everything that I have spent years learning, making me an advanced Photoshop User, is slowly becoming a "one-click-and-we-do-it-for-you" feature.

Response:

That's why you should be an artist before you are PS user... there still is no "make art", "make good", or "make visually appealing" button ...

Seems to me that a lot of Vectorworks users, particularly on this forum, come under the first reaction. They like that VW is complex and manually intensive. They like that they are advanced users and can do things with it that many others cannot. They see ease-of-use as a threat to their advanced user status. A threat to their job even. They dismiss ease-of-use as "dumbing down," turning advanced tools into toys, as doing the design for you; even as opening admission up to numbskulls who shouldn't be using computers or VW. They dismiss people who might be great designers but find VW too complicated; these sorts of people, it seems, are unworthy of designing in VW.

And this attitude colours their feedback to NNA.

And then we have tools such as the window tool which requires the user to manually fit the wall around the window if the window is a little complex. It boggles my mind that tools like this are allowed into production.

If NNA wants VW to be the "designer's" CAD then that's who they should be aiming their tools at. Not Vectorworks users, but designers. And as many great software developers have proven throughout the history of software, ease-of-use does not need to mean lack of power.

[VincentCuclair]

Anyone who has seen some of the new and updated automation tools in Photoshop CS5 knows that it is going to make a big impact.

Nice!

Seems to me that a lot of Vectorworks users, particularly on this forum, come under the first reaction. They like that VW is complex and manually intensive. They like that they are advanced users and can do things with it that many others cannot. They see ease-of-use as a threat to their advanced user status. A threat to their job even.

Perhaps, but can you blame them, some probably put in as much time as the people at NNA tech. (Not me, I for example moved to Mac because I wanted the ease-of-use setup.)

And this attitude colours their feedback to NNA.

?

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=137032&Searchpage=1&Main=27995&Words=stair&Search=true#Post137032

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=137930#Post137930

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139225#Post139225

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=137904#Post137904

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=131710#Post131710

[Uli]

Hi,

I think everything is only a tool, same to VW and I think there is a lot of interesting IT stuff coming in the future (today IT design stoneage). Also I think that it depends what kind of job someone is working in because if he/she is a technician, than knowledge of IT is power, if he/she is a designer there is nothing he/she should be afraid of and any technical tool is welcome. Same to making music.

Regards

Uli

[starling75]

Did you see this?

and the plugin source page ...

[VincentCuclair]

It gets even better........!

[starling75]

It gets even better........!

Lol :grin:

[Christiaan]

Perhaps, but can you blame them

That's what I'm doing.

I think this attitude from some veteran users coupled with the UI design of VW being engineer-led instead of design-led is why we end up with tools like the window tool, which require the user to manually fit the walls to the window as soon as the window gets a little complicated.

I've had the decision behind this interface design defended on the basis of prioritising software engineering considerations over end user UI considerations. I don't think that's good enough.

[Ozzie]

Seems to me that a lot of Vectorworks users, particularly on this forum, come under the first reaction. They like that VW is complex and manually intensive. They like that they are advanced users and can do things with it that many others cannot. They see ease-of-use as a threat to their advanced user status. A threat to their job even. They dismiss ease-of-use as "dumbing down," turning advanced tools into toys, as doing the design for you; even as opening admission up to numbskulls who shouldn't be using computers or VW. They dismiss people who might be great designers but find VW too complicated; these sorts of people, it seems, are unworthy of designing in VW

a really simplified and to a degree cynical view of reality

I cannot imagine one advanced user not being wrapt to see real improvements made to VW ? what do they do? - whip themselves each morning before beginning work and again when finishing at night thinking ? I am such an advanced VW user ? yippee

again ? VW is just a tool ? same as a shovel or hammer

old saying ? poor tradesmen blame their tools

we live in an age of miracles and wonders ? no doubt tragedy and disasters too

software and computers ? c?mon ? where were we 5 years ago, 10 years ago

using VW most days I find things that really p** me off but not as p**ed of as I was four or five years back

They see ease-of-use as a threat to their advanced user status

BE BOLD - name them - who are these users holding us all back that NNA is what?? - even hiding behind as an excuse to not move forward

what a crock full off .....???

[VincentCuclair]

Perhaps, but can you blame them

That's what I'm doing.

I think this attitude from some veteran users coupled with the UI design of VW being engineer-led instead of design-led is why we end up with tools like the window tool, which require the user to manually fit the walls to the window as soon as the window gets a little complicated.

I've had the decision behind this interface design defended on the basis of prioritising software engineering considerations over end user UI considerations. I don't think that's good enough.

The fact remains that they (NNA) don't seem to be able to keep up with 'other' apps (because that is what everyone/you compare and judge VW by), perhaps if they didn't feel pressed into forging ahead, by certain users, they could actually be able to concentrate on developing tools that work as they should...................by the way what do you mean by colours their feedback show some examples....it sounds more like you're a bit grumpy about reactions to your suggestions, everyone gets those not just you.......that's what forums are for.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Vincent C

[Christiaan]

perhaps if they didn't feel pressed into forging ahead, by certain users, they could actually be able to concentrate on developing tools that work as they should

I don't think feature prioritisation is the problem. The problem is that software engineering matters take priority over good UI design.

When I criticised the above window UI on the mailing list I wasn't told that 'well, yes, that's how it works now but we're working on it," I was told that the algorithm that VW uses to calculate symbol-in-walls only calculates the convex shape and that it's mathematically difficult to calculate the concave shape, and so this is why the user is left to do the manual lifting (as the VW user so often is).

The answer is obvious to a UI designer. Change the algorithm, change the code, who cares, just don't tell me that I have to manually fit the walls to a window because the bloomin maths is tricky.

Imagine what sort of architecture we'd have if the engineer always trumped the architect because it he/she considered it too tricky to calculate architect's design?

[VincentCuclair]

I was told that the algorithm that VW uses to calculate symbol-in-walls only calculates the convex shape and that it's mathematically difficult to calculate the concave shape, and so this is why the user is left to do the manual lifting (as the VW user so often is).

Well there you are, with that kind of background info I can (and will) support you in your criticism of the developers, providing of-course there is an algorithm that actually can solve it (oh Petri where art thou?)..............

..on the other hand isn't that an engineering problem in essence, showing itself though the UI?

Edited April 22, 2010 by Vincent C

[Christiaan]

..on the other hand isn't that an engineering problem in essence, showing itself though the UI?

Not on the other hand, that?s precisely what it is. It?s an engineering problem manifesting itself in the UI and it shouldn?t be. Had the UI been design-led the engineering team would have been sent back to the drawing board until it didn?t manifest in the UI.

VW is littered with these kinds of issues, because there?s a systemic lack of attention to detail, because the design of VW is engineer-led.

[bc]

Totally with you here Christiaan. I repeat:

"VW is littered with these kinds of issues, because there?s a systemic lack of attention to detail, because the design of VW is engineer-led."

[Christiaan]

I'll add that this is no criticism of NNA engineers, who are clearly a hugely talented bunch. I just think there's no one willing or able to demand a certain level of UI design quality. The potential of what we could do with 3D VW is immense, it's just needs to overcome this matter of the details.

[Tom G.]

I agree that there is an engineering bias to the program which is at odds with a designer or artist's mentality where one picks up a pencil and begins to draw with as few barriers in the way as is possible. Instead, the program expects you to fill out a great number of fields with information before you can proceed UNLESS you have an understanding of back doors or work-arounds where you defeat certain protocols in order to get free of what is otherwise a less than intuitive setup process.

If you are a single user, in control of most of the elements of design, you'll expect freedom of choice. You want to shoot first and sort it out later. You don't need all your supplies cataloged, pencils sharpened and put into neat rows. Vwks wants you to order much of your drawing first, setting up floor and wall heights in advance along with lots of pre-created layers and classes. This is 180? counter to the way I work and the primary reason why I started my VectorWorks for Left Handers videos. To me it makes no logical sense that the setup process expects us to be experienced users--how else to understand what's just been created--yet if we were such a user, we'd really have no need for this process in the first place since we'd be able to do just enough to get started, filling in other elements later on as we began to understand the true needs of the project and then the drawing.

Case in point, if you have the opportunity, watch NNA's Key Concepts of VW Architect. Frank Brault narrates and takes you through the Setup process. Even someone as good as Frank gets flumoxed trying to navigate back and forth between these imposed layers and classes. At the end of the portion of video that covers setup, you have to ask yourself how we can expect a new user to absorb and retain this information. Why aren't we offered a simpler path, a bifurcated path if you will, for simpler projects where we're given a good starter set of layers and classes but no more. I first asked for this eight or ten years ago but nothing has changed in this regard.

I also agree with Christiann that there is a decided lack of input on these macro issues from many name users on this board and elsewhere. There's lots of info on micro-use of the tools which is fantastic but their silence means that these higher level issues go undiscussed or if they do, they are short-lived as these kinds of posts often trigger a don't-rock-the-boat bow shot fired at the poster, either directly of off list. Frequently, as a result of this self-censoring, the only ones enabling regular discussion of a structural nature are new users who don't know any better.

Edited April 24, 2010 by tguy

[VincentCuclair]

I just think there's no one willing or able to demand a certain level of UI design quality.

With a clear and easily understood UI you probably win a large amount of new user, I suspect that most people buying these apps are either beginners or come from AC and the learning curve is an important issue to make the jump, I guess this supports your earlier comment C., that the more skillful VW users feedback doesn't enough stress this need for UI upgrading.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Vincent C