Clipping a Wall Under a Rafter

[JSiegel]

Hi All,

What is the best way to clip the highlighted wall to be flush with the rafter bottom. See attached screen shot. TY Jeremy

[Pat Stanford]

Manually you can do it with Wall Peaks. If the rafter is on a different layer than the wall you could try to Fit Wall to Roof command.

[JSiegel]

Pat the "wall peaks" didn't work with joined/mitered exterior walls, but "fit walls to roof" worked just fine. This will be a great tool with many applications moving forward. TY Jeremy

[Ken]

This works at least in v2008 (I'm still pulling my hair out using v2010):

1. On the same layer as your sloping roof face, create a temporary horizontal roof face (zero pitch) the bottom of which has same global Z position as the top of your subject wall.

2. Temporarily *cut* (Command-X) any other roof faces that may sit below this temporary roof and the your sloping roof face. If there are none, skip this step.

3. Use Fit Walls To Roof command, selecting the proper layer where your roof faces reside.

4. Done. Go back to delete temporary roof face created in step 1.

5. Paste back in place (Option-Command-V) the roof faces from step #2 on the proper layer (if the step was required).

[bcd]

You can also Split the wall.

- Side View

- Select the wall

- Alt-L to Split only the selected wall

- Delete the offending piece.

(no - this is a terrible method, results in a solid section rather than a wall)

Edited April 20, 2010 by bcd

[JSiegel]

Hi all, I have been using the "Fit Wall to Roof" command with some success but encounter the following problem: When I "Fit wall" and constrain at 1st floor geometry" the wall blows right thru the 1st floor windows? Any thoughts on how to avoid this? TY Jeremy

[CipesDesign]

More details please. Is that whole gable end one wall? If so, is it in the ground floor level or the second level? When you used the fit to command were you constraining the top or the bottom of the wall, and most importantly, is that window actually inserted in the wall (you can check in the OIP, if it says "Window in Wall" as opposed to just "Window").

[JSiegel]

Peter, the gable end wall is one continuous wall on the second floor DL. I am constraining at the bottom of wall, so that the wall extends down to meet the porch roof. The window is a "window in wall" on the first floor DL. See screen shot. TY Jeremy

[CipesDesign]

OK. Try this instead (looks like you might have already done so): Use two walls, one for each building level. The first floor wall will need to longer (in plan) so that it meets the roof as necessary. Then reshape that wall in 3d so that it conforms to the (actual) interior necessity. Then, finally, in your VP use an annotation (mask) to cover the now offending wall (which will appear incorrectly in plan, in the first floor).

These sorts of problems can be quite complex. That's why we get paid to do this stuff ;-))

P

[JSiegel]

That worked just fine. Just thought I was doing something incorrectly, but I guess not. TY Jeremy

[occidental tourist]

A Dinasour from previous versions weighing in. I checked Jeremy's screen shot to see if I could ascertain where in the Object Info box "Window in Wall" would appear. I can't see it in the screen shot, although the object info palette is shown, but I don't appear to have that option in my antique VW version 9.5.3 but I'm trying to figure out if there is something akin.

I have a separate post up about how to trim walls but the purpose of that is to trim around a window, so if chosing "in wall" would accomplish this I'd be all set. I'm not trying to be a cyber jerk by abandoning the thread I started but the subtext here goes to my question.

I tried searching first but I keep forgetting that the advanced search sets the age of the thread to 1 week as a default so my searches came up empty, today I remembered to set it to the last 6 years and this recent thread popped right up.

In my case the window does not go within the entirety of the wall because the wall is representation of a piece of plywood and the window will only clip a rectangular corner. I could simply make two pieces of wall to accomplish the same thing but when I'm doing a framing plan, it is easier to just work with 4x8 'walls' so clipping the corner of a window out is a regular task I'd like to conquer.

thanks,

AT

Edited May 13, 2010 by occidental tourist

[CipesDesign]

Brian, a couple things... first version 9.x.x was probably the most horrible version of VW's that was ever created. You would be doing yourself a huge favor to upgrade. Second, a window should insert into a wall and also take on the walls thickness if and only if a) the wall insertion option is on (I can't recall how this works in 9.5.3) and b) if the "Use Wall Thickness" checkbox is checked in the OIP. Lastly, I'm not sure what type of work you are doing, but representing a wall as a piece of plywood seems odd. If you could post a screen shot of your file it might be very helpful. In VW's (even in 9.5.3) walls can have thickness as well as height and I can't see any reason not to use the tools (software) to their highest potential- ie: why not create a more accurate wall?? What you are asking above sounds sort of like "I have this square peg that I really need to fit into this round hole..."

[occidental tourist]

hopefully from this screen shot you can see that I use this as a framing tool to solve field details that I used to do in my head on the fly. Not something I can justify a lot of monetary investment for upgrade in although I'll certainly consider you recommendation that I ended up marooned at a particularly infertile version.

I find it powerful and not counterintuitive so it still seems like a useful tool to me. I can figure a workaround for this problem but there may be a more straightforward solution even in version 9.

Thanks,

AT

Edited May 13, 2010 by occidental tourist

[CipesDesign]

Brian, how, exactly, are you creating the wall sht'g (plywood)? If they are extrudes, and if they are created from 4 x 8 rectangles, you can very easily "Clip Surface" from the parent rectangles. Of course in this scenario you will need to know the dimensions which represent the extent of the clipped portions. Second idea: if the windows are in place first, go to a frontal view of the wall and draw the plywood (2d) as if were already cut in as needed to place the windows, then extrude the polygons and switch to top/plan view to move them into place at the wall line...

[bcd]

You could create a 3d symbol of a plywood sheet.

Save it using the Convert to Group insertion option.

Sheet your building using these and as Peter says, open the group and clip the sheets as necessary by editing the extrude.

Important is to extrude a 4' x 8' by the sheet thickness and rotate it into the x-z plane rather than an 8'x5/8" extruding by 4'.

[occidental tourist]

I haven't extruded polygons to make these plywood sheets, although if they are easier to clip I guess I shot try to do that. The plywood sheets are actually walls. The create wall tool has always seemed the easiest to use to me, so the plywood is a wall. I just put in 48" for delta Z, 96" in delta X, 0 in delta Y, and 5/8" in thickness.

All the studs, joists, etc. are walls.

Can i change a wall to a polygon?

Can I create a 4x8 polygon in Front view and then extrude to 5/8" or do I have to make it in plan view and then rotate vertically?

Once I create this polygon and move it into place, could I clip it in front view by placing a 2D rectangle over it and using the trim tool?

Thks.

AT

[CipesDesign]

If you double click a wall it will invoke the 3d reshape tool which allows you to reshape the wall by adding, deleting or moving vertices. HOWEVER (and that was a very intentional shout), I think you might be missing a great deal of the power of VW's in your methodology.

[occidental tourist]

If you double click a wall it will invoke the 3d reshape tool which allows you to reshape the wall by adding, deleting or moving vertices.

now that you mention this method, I remember this is how I reshaped walls under gable roof pitches. Those were more traditional walls and I was moving existing vertices, didn't recall I could add. . . that will take care of it and with snap to object it ought to be easy to make the cutout. I'll try right away.

HOWEVER (and that was a very intentional shout), I think you might be missing a great deal of the power of VW's in your methodology.

To rephrase that timeworn aphorism, if you're a screwgun everything looks like a screw. So I learned to create VW walls as x, y, z rectangles so since most building materials are x,y,z rectangles I just carried that method over.

So I tried with 3D reshape. Klunky with walls. When you choose the plus option it doesn't seem to reliably add vertices. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I tried click, click-drag, and double click on the perimeter of the object without any reliable results. I was snapped to the object and highly magnified so I wouldn't miss. The 3D reshape tool displayed the existing vertices of the wall which are not displayed by just selecting it so I thought I was gonna be made in the shade but . . .

Occasionally a new vertice would appear but not in a logical pattern where I could understand what I did to create it. Moving them was impossible. If I got one in the run of the x or z shape of the wall, sometimes but not always, I could grab it and distort the wall as if adding a peak. But one I finally got two new vertices added and then tried to move the original corner to create the inset of cutting the window out of the 'plywood' the original corner wouldn't move. It would only give me arrows acting as if I could move it in the z dimension, but it didn't move even in that dimension although I had cursor arrows.

So I gave up and started trying rectangles. Drew One. Then chose the 2D reshape tool but couldn't add vertices or move the existing ones.

So then I tried the trim tool. Drew a 2D rectangle and then drew a smaller one on top and experimented with which one should be selected when I choose the Trim Tool. Well this tool actually does something, but, as you can see from the attached screen shot, it doesn't clip the overlap of the rectangles, it clips a straight line between the intersection of the overlaps so you get a diagonal line instead of a smaller rectangle clipped out.

I moved the rectangle I used to clip so you could see the result in the picture. I had something wrong logically because the piece left of the larger rectangle is actually the small diagonal corner. So I still don't have the boolean operation figured out, but it looks like I'm going down a dead end alley if I'm only going to be able to create a diagonal line when I'm trying to clip the entire rectangular overlap.

All in all, my simple quick fix is to make two rectangular walls that add up to 8 feet in length with the one over the window being shortened and with higher bottom Z so it is above the window and then join the walls but that doesn't erase the line between them in the running join to make them appear to be one piece of plywood the way it would if I were joining two walls at a corner. Maybe I don't have something set right. doesn't work joining rectangangles either, the line remains between the two rectangles. But,

I'm still trying to ramp up my capabilities here and I'm glad to get into the world of extruding polygons, but first I have to learn how to add and move vertices reliably or join objects to create a single object.

thanks from the VW Kindergarten.

AT

Edited May 14, 2010 by occidental tourist

[bcd]

I agree with Peter.

But - following your methodology the magic command you need to invoke is the

Modify>Clip Surface.

The top polygon clips the underlying polygon - press delete to see the result.

[CipesDesign]

Brian, what I meant in my post above was that you seem to be wasting an enormous amount of time fighting with the software because you have (apparently) never gotten any training with it. I'll bet that 3 or 4 hours with a trainer would save you 10+ hours per job, forever! Just saying...

[occidental tourist]

Brian, what I meant in my post above was that you seem to be wasting an enormous amount of time fighting with the software because you have (apparently) never gotten any training with it. I'll bet that 3 or 4 hours with a trainer would save you 10+ hours per job, forever! Just saying...

very fairly said. maybe I only have enough facility to make me dangerous. I'm not asking you to indulge incompetence, per se. It is true that I am prone to pyrrhic victory over work challenges. YEsterday I spent a half hour retreiving a $20 hole saw we dropped through a hole in a grey water system we were installing. It really wouldn't have done damage to leave it there, so the half hour for two guys was much more costly than leaving it there.

credit [or discredit] hard head.

I realize that the hole in this philosophy is that I can have sophisticated mastery of some aspects of a technology but can have skipped over simple building blocks that would solve problems.

This seems to be one of them, although my last extended commitment to solving a VW problem was isometric dimensioning. I similarly assumed that my inability to do that was the result of my lack of facility with the program. Turns out its a lack of facility of the program and I couldn't necessarily have cured that deficiency with an educational approach -- although I'm pretty proud of the solution I worked out myself of creating a dimension layer and giving it a different scale to match the foreshortened isometric representation and I can now do isometric dimensioning quite precisely.

I feel like the 2D and 3D reshape ought to be a little more intuitive and powerful but the whole package, even Version 9, is so useful I'm not here to whine about it

Usually, problem solving like this gives me more understanding of functions that don't suit or solve the problem but presuppose and solve future problems. So in that sense I treat narrow problem solving as global learning about the program.

Best Regards and don't hesitate to point to modestly priced training opportunities in my region - Southern New England -- if those resources are familiar to you.

AT

[occidental tourist]

I agree with Peter.

But - following your methodology the magic command you need to invoke is the

Modify>Clip Surface.

The top polygon clips the underlying polygon - press delete to see the result.

Done,

so that worked fine. I created a 2D rectangle 4x8 feet in front view. Then I created another smaller rectangle that covered the intersection of the larger sheet and the window. I chose them both and used the Tool> Clip Surface function in my version.

Then I extruded the 2D remnant to 5/8" thick.

Originally you suggested I make a 4x8 extrude and then modify (I assume you mean clip or trim) the extrusion. Is there a way to do this? The clip Surface doesn't seem to work on 3D objects. Maybe something that would clip an extrusion could clip a wall. Any such tool would surely clip a wall converted to polygon but when you convert you loose significant OIP control which is why I like working with walls better.

You especially get better Z management and axis standarization. The OIP for the extrude does not list a Z location -- partly, I assume, because it tracks X and Y and Extrusion meaning that the extrusion is the Z value by definition, but it will not necessarily coordinate with the nominal drawing axes depending on the rotation of the extrusion

Walls on the other hand are essentially extruded polygons with x, y and z axes that remain coordinate with the drawing axis.

In the case of the sample clipped and then extruded figure attached, because it is vertically oriented, it is holding the Y dimension as 4 ft. even though in this drawing it is really the Z dimension that is 4 ft. and the Y dimension is 5/8 inch.

Created as a wall I have numerical control and reference to its location and delta in all three dimensions from the OIP and those nominal axes match the drawing axes. Also - very minor point, it doesn't seem to present it's class color in the top/plan view as the walls do.

But there doesn't seem to be a reliable way to quickly clip a wall, so this may be the best option for what I'm trying to do.

thank you.

AT

[bcd]

I have a separate post up about how to trim walls but the purpose of that is to trim around a window, so if chosing "in wall" would accomplish this I'd be all set.

In my case the window does not go within the entirety of the wall because the wall is representation of a piece of plywood and the window will only clip a rectangular corner. I could simply make two pieces of wall to accomplish the same thing but when I'm doing a framing plan, it is easier to just work with 4x8 'walls' so clipping the corner of a window out is a regular task I'd like to conquer.

Hi AT.

Getting back to your original question. I believe using walls as individual plywood panels is an incorrect choice. Walls are intelligent continuous objects that can be punctuated with doors, windows & the like. An object cannot interact with two separate walls. As far as I can tell you are trying to both construct your model and produce framing plans at the same time using a flawed method.

I would suggest, you

1) construct your model using walls, windows, doors etc in typical fashion and

2) if you wish to model framing members either upgrade to Architect (which includes a framing tool and will spit out a 2d framing plan & 3d framing model in <10 seconds). You can then edit this using 3d modeling if required.

Or,

3) recognize that your are producing a detailed 3d framing model manually and construct each piece of lumber individually using extruded clipped rectangles as you are intending.

Unless you actually need isometrics for presentation you may find that you can draw your framing details in 2d based on the orthographic views produced using method 1).

(just see it as retrieving the same saw blade by flushing it to the pipe outlet rather than fishing it through a hole)

[occidental tourist]

As far as I can tell you are trying to both construct your model and produce framing plans at the same time

a lot of my design work is guided by framing techniques and materials so that is why I try to work with representations of the individual components rather than just place entire wall surfaces on each side of the building.

Obviously, I'm doing this differently than many folks would so I understand that the program will not necessarily be optimized to my method.

I appreciate the help getting as close as I can.

Is there a way to clip an extruded polygon?

I suppose I could duplicate the 4x8 as 2 dimensional and as long as I'm in front view (or whichever side I'm working on)Then clip each one and then extrude. Duplicate array will allow me to handle the z movement during duplication so the lack of reliable 'z' control for polygon becomes less critical. Actually, while they are 2 dimensionally, the Y inputs and locs will control the Z in a vertical view. So I just need to make sure I place them precisely in the plane I want them, so I don't have to move them all in plan view to get them up against the framing.

Upgrades probably aren't in my near future, but can you give the cliff notes version of how architect handles framing. I assume there is individual control of various elements for creating irregular stud space. Likewise I need to draw joists and band joists and rafters, etc. As I recall, all my rafters are individual roofs just as the studs and joists are individual walls. Haven't gotten that high on this building.. .

thanks

AT

[CipesDesign]

It's easy to clip an extruded polygon (or any other extrude). Enter the extrude to view and edit its underlying 2d shape. (In recent versions all it takes is a double click and you're "in"; in your older version I can't remember how to get there - perhaps "enter group"? - or perhaps double clicking. Someone will probably remember or has it actually running and can look). Then just use "Clip Surface" / "Add Surface" or any other 2d editing technique and exit to return to the extrude...

I would also echo and re-echo what many of the responses have said (including mine): in VW's, even in your older version, there are much easier and better ways to achieve what you are attempting. Although one of VW's greatest assets is the incredible flexibility it offers to users in terms of choosing a working methodology (workflow) it can also in some cases be a big liability. Most notably this happens when users become entrenched in (or attached to) a workflow that is inefficient and perhaps inflexible. More often than not I've seen this in converts from other CAD packages, but it can also occur when folks are entirely self-taught. The problem is that VW's is so incredibly feature-rich that it is nearly impossible to find all the goodies on your own.

I also again gently remind you that in more recent releases of VW's, most notably version 2009 and 2010, these functions are so easy that if/when you ever try it you'll kick yourself for not doing it sooner... With regards. P