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VW9 Viewer


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I've read some messages about this issue before, but, unfortunately, no answer from technical staff at Nemetschek. The VectorWorks Viewer is definitely a very useful tool for many professionals, specially for those in the printing service business. Anyway, I was sadly surprised to find out that the VW9 Viewer doesn't even OPEN VW8-generated files. What's the use of it then, as VW9 has been only recently released and a lot of professionals (specially the ones requiring our printing services) have not updated yet (and many won't, for a while)?

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Actually this is a marketing decision and not a technical decision. If you wish to inquire about this you may contact marketing at marketing@nemetschek.net for more information.

------------------

Brian O

Nemetschek North America

Technical Support Specialist

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm glad these discussion forums have been upgraded. smile.gif" border="0

Now as I was saying, which may have been accidentally deleted in the process...

The current availability of VW Viewer with its current set of nonfunctional, irrelevant pull-down menus and incompatibility with VW8 is simply stupid marketing. This is quite obvious when you look at its actual use...

For example, I often provide the first stage of architectural drawings to other architects, designers, property owners, etc, all of whom may or may not have VW. Currently I do not own VW9, and do not plan to upgrade until most of the bugs in 9.5 are ironed out (like perhaps in mid or late 2002?). So I cannot "market" VW and my services with v8 drawings. Nada. Nil. Zero. Stupid.

My drawings also go to clients who benefit from simplicity and not from exposure to all the layers, classes and nonfunctional palettes of a free Viewer. There are, in fact, enough hazards and potential misunderstandings in drawing content using the current version of Viewer with so many seemingly "editable" features that I would prefer NOT to distribute it with my drawings. So, for all my many projects going out week after week and so many people looking at them, I DON'T EVER mention Viewer is available, and I still would not when I get 9.5 -- for its current form. I send out in hardcopy, PDF, DWG or locked-out MCD when requested. It would otherwise be stupid marketing for me. It's stupid marketing, period.

Also, some clients may start believing they can get away with paying for the software instead of the professional architect, whoever that may be. So even if I had v9 drawings and distributed the free Viewer, I would only add to the misunderstanding of what architects do, add to the undervaluation of "design services," propagation of poor design, poor construction, poor engineering, jeopardizing of my authorship, etc. It would only be a disservice to my colleagues in architecture. I've seen it happen. I'm in the market segment where it happens! You cannot tell me it doesn't happen. It's the same market segment where I can also help market a mid-range CAD package like VW -- but only if it's in a proper format, with the proper approach, with proper safeguards. Viewer should be a simpler, smaller, quicker, backwards-compatible app that uses only Saved Sheets to navigate to the 3D model and printable sheets. Don't show layers and classes. Nothing would be missed. Make it backwards compatible.

Currently I think Viewer is stupid marketing. Or perhaps "shrewd marketing" -- but in which I cannot and will not participate. Or ignorant marketing, by NNA. Delete this reply if you must, NNA administrators.

In short, I would love to love the software. I would love to evangelize VW. I want to help spread the use of VW and the use of my services. But I cannot with the current free Viewer. It's simply stupid. mad.gif" border="0

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: Archken ]

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Ken,

I'm sorry to hear that you're disappointed with the Viewer, it has been a popular feature of the VectorWorks 9 product line. Customers now have an easier way to convince service bureaus to support VectorWorks and to exchange their drawings with contractors that don't have VectorWorks.

The interface is extremely simple compared to a full copy of VectorWorks and I've said before I disagree with you that access to layers and classes are not necessary for other to view drawings. Perhaps not in your case, but for many they are.

We developed the Viewer as a "lightwieght" copy of VectorWorks so it retains many basic concepts such as the fact that there is always a selection tool active. This means that drawings have some simple editability but we decided that the value of a Viewer outweighed this disadvantage. We will work in coming versions to improve this.

As with any feature that you don't like, you can always choose not to use it if it does not improve your process. The positive feedback we've received, however, indicates that it is a valuable addition to the product line in its current form.

Regards,Sean

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quote:

Originally posted by SeanFlaherty:
...As with any feature that you don't like, you can always choose not to use it if it does not improve your process. The positive feedback we've received, however, indicates that it is a valuable addition to the product line in its current form.

Regards,Sean

Sean, the only way for me NOT to use the "feature" is to NOT USE VIEWER AT ALL!

One solution I'm hoping for is to implement a way of using Workspace Editor to delete entire menus from Viewer, then somehow saved as an UI for Viewer. Don't include WE with Viewer, of course.

Perhaps the SDK can do this? If so, I would not mind purchasing the SDK for this very purpose -- if pricing is reasonable.

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quote:

Originally posted by SeanFlaherty:
... The positive feedback we've received, however, indicates that it is a valuable addition to the product line in its current form.

Sean, I really have to question the scope of your "positive feedback" because I'm talking about the further ramifications of Viewer distribution. I was among those clamoring for something like Viewer a long time ago, and my initial reaction a few months ago when it was made available, was "hooray! - now I can show the world how beautiful my drawings are!" So the early usage may not reveal much. And, as you may know, there won't be much negative feedback because people simply won't use it.

How about asking the same feedback: would it make any difference if the Edit, Organize and Palettes menus, along with the Layers and Classes pull-downs, were removed? In ultimate use, probably not! Just use Saved Sheets! Just put the Undo command under the File menu!

I'm primarily speaking on behalf of MY OWN marketing -- not as much the marketing of NNA for the ultimate sales increases of the VW line -- regarding the menus of Viewer.

It hurts not only me, but potential users of VW.

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Ken, if you wish to try to do this with the SDK, (I do not know if this is within it's scope) it is freely available for download from http://www.nemetschek.net/support/custom/sdk/Index.html.

Matthew GiampapaTechnical Support

quote:

Originally posted by Archken:

Sean, the only way for me NOT to use the "feature" is to NOT USE VIEWER AT ALL!

One solution I'm hoping for is to implement a way of using Workspace Editor to delete entire menus from Viewer, then somehow saved as an UI for Viewer. Don't include WE with Viewer, of course.

Perhaps the SDK can do this? If so, I would not mind purchasing the SDK for this very purpose -- if pricing is reasonable.

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Thanks, Matthew. I'll try the SDK download.

Regarding *any* freebie app like Viewer, I want to suggest a hypothetical example:

What if the current commercial version of Vectorworks Architect 9.5 was made totally free just for the asking? Let's hypothetically assume that revenue from VA sales is secured in some way for NNA. For sake of argument, let's just take NNA's profit motivation out of the picture.

Now, how likely would architects and designers freely distribute their electronic drawings BUNDLED WITH A FULL VERSION of Architect to print shops, clients, consultants, etc? What hazards, misunderstandings, etc, would there possibly be?

The answer is, presumably, that some designers would indeed go forward and give away VA! They would cheer it. They may argue that it may actually improve their working relationship with clients, integration with consultants, compatibility with printing bureaus, etc.

But, of course, some other designers would definitely NOT give away a full version of VA, even if it was free and legally encouraged. The reasons are various, mentioned above, but it certainly includes stupid marketing for design services. Ultimately, it becomes stupid marketing for NNA, too, because the designer is sort of "in the same boat" with the software developer.

The issue I'm trying to raise is that Viewer may have some of the same problems for the designer, if perhaps limited to the actual *purchase* of the commercial software. Take the burden of purchase out of the picture, and the situation is very similar. It certainly approaches it. And because of that, once you realize it, you stop distributing it.

Admittedly, this is hard to nail down. It takes perhaps a survey of users AND clients AND consultants AND etc.

The other test is to offer Viewer without those features mentioned above, with instruction to use Saved Sheets, and ask, "do you like it?" And "do you prefer it over the earlier version?"

The answer may be, "YES!"

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Hello,

I followed those discussions about the viewer with very high interest. Firstly, I have to point out that I am not an architect. In my daily work I am a system-administrator/programmer. However I have to work with designers and architects daily. I also do a lot of programming outside VectorWorks. The programs are made varies from calculation to facturation programs in Visual Basic. So now you have my background for my reaction.

I can understand your concerns about duplicating and copying your own work. And I agree completely with you, that duplicating each others work is bad habit and surely bad practice.

But as a programmer I have a very important question to ask to you all. And believe me, the answer will be realy simple. So here it comes.

How many illegally copied programs are running on your computer? Did you buy for every little program the user-licence? And did you follow the licence strictly?

I realise that I asked 3 questions but never mind. Also it is not my purpose that you answered those questions. But I think you get the point.

If I would bother about every illegal copy which was taken from programs I written, I would be a very sad person. Programming is not an easy task and it takes long before you have a fine working program. It can take several months before you can finish the program. Also many times you get paid after the final installation. And how many times do you think I have to update the program after the final installation? Most times I do not even bill those updates because client satisfaction is highly important for me. Needles to say that I have a lot of work to do.

But believe me, many programmers complain about illegally taken copies of their hard work. And no one seems to bother because copying takes only a few minutes.

Did I hear you say that the price of a computer program is too expensive? How much would you ask for 3 months works, saturdays, sundays and holidays included? Can you imagine days of 14 to 16 hours work? There are long I can assure you.

So next time you take a copy of someone's else program or drawing, take a minute to think about his discussion. How wrong you find someone copying your work and how normal you find it taking that copy for yourself.

If we like to change that situation, we all have to begin by ourselves. And no one is perfect including myself. And in case you are really very good, you do not need to copy other peoples hard work because you can do it yourself. And your clients will feel that in every aspect of your work.

To end my reaction, I have to be fair with you and answer my questions I put to you. All the programs on both my computers PC and Mac are original and I use them completely to the terms of the licence. And even when I could take your most important design and sell it for thousands, believe me I would never take it. It is simply yours because there is no challenge and honesty in it. Regretfully as you pointed out, many people would not bother taking it.

Also I am NOT saying that everyone who copies a program is bad. I can understand that there are situations where those actions can be justified. Also speaking for myself, I try to build up a good relationship with my clients. I correct errors when possible within 24 hours. If they need an extra addition I provide it without cost. If they need help, they know they can reach me day and night. And needles to say, I solve other problems too. When there is no faith between you and your client, you can never get satisfying results. And to be honest, most times it works out fine. I start programming in 1982 and still today several of those programs are still in use without the Y2K bug.

I wish you all who are involved in this discussion a very nice weekend and much inspiration with your truly creative designs. And at last, VectorWorks is a very great and versatile program. When I firstly came accross it (in 1994) I broke it down until below the ground. But I had to work with it professionally since then, and in time I realised that many times it was not VectorWorks who was at stake but my own limited thinking who was responsible. And since then, VectorWorks becomes my close companion every day and together we regularly surprised my boss when we make the impossible possible.

VectorWorks is really a very good and nice program and also the people who are behind it at Nemetschek. So we should gave them a little more credit when something goes wrong I think.

BE HAPPY IN YOUR WORK !!!

Friendly greetings,

StarGate smile.gif" border="0tongue.gif" border="0

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VulcanGrip,

Around when the website changed to www.vectorworks.net and back again to nemetschek.net it broke a few things. The viewer link was broken for a few days, unfortunately it?s all automated so no one checked it until days afterward.

Check your private messages for the link.

Matthew GiampapaTechnical Support

quote:

Originally posted by VulcanGrip:

WoW, Stargate, you're the greatest!...Um, about viewer...I've requested the download link like three times and they wont e-mail it to me like they said, UGG.

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The BENEFITS I'm talking about may not be so obvious. Here are some graphics:

Now.gif

The current version of SDK does not seem to affect changes in Viewer. It seems to be mostly additive, not subtractive. If it can remove menus from Viewer, I would be glad to pay some money for it -- or another software like it. I wish Workspace Editor could make these changes. With SavedSheets, there's practically no difference in functionality when the menus are gone. I really think Viewer would be a better piece of software -- I would definitely welcome it more!

BetterViewer.gif

I'm already distributing my drawings on CDs (mostly PDFs and DXFs at this time), so including Viewer would be an easy bonus -- for me as well as NNA. On average, I send out about five projects per month, and viewers of my drawings may, in turn, contact three or four others for the project. They are clients, architects, consultants, contractors, printing services, etc. It's quite an opportunity to evangelize Vectorworks. Or not!

I'm sure these changes would produce just as much "postive feedback" for Viewer. And, it hits another bird with the same stone -- drawings can get "locked" without access to layers and classes, so temporarily editing for printing can be prevented. The benefits clearly outweigh the status quo. At least have it as an option. Please.

And thankyou, Stargate, for the exhaustive reply on software plagiarism. I absolutely agree. cool.gif" border="0

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I would be interested in other opions here? Yes, I can see the use of a more'flexable' viewer...where one could pick and choose the functions? In a perfect world perhaps;p Archken I'm wondering how much better yourpresentation would look with textures? Yes, I agree, much better...SMOoOCH:}

shocked.gif" border="0

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quote:

Originally posted by VulcanGrip:
I would be interested in other opions here?
shocked.gif" border="0

I've watched this thread for a while and I honestly can't understand the problem with the current viewer. I've found it to be a valuable tool. It has saved me alot of time communicating with clients and consultants.

I suppose the best option for people who don't like it would be simply not to distribute any digital information. Realistically, anyone who is determined enough, and is competent with a computer, is as capable of editing a PDF as they are a MCD. So if fraud is your concern, the viewer isn't going expose you to any more risk than any other digital media.

One thing I did noticed is the lock/unlock commands are not in the viewers workspace. If you are concerned with people editing your work before printing you could simply lock it befor you send it to anyone. Mayby thats simplifying the issue, I don't know?

Just my 2 cents.Good Luck

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1) I think an independent file format may impose other limitations. Chris, are you not talking about something like a XYZ extension in addition to the MCD extension, where VW would read and write MCD, then write but not read XYZ -- whereas Viewer would only read XYZ, not read MCD nor write either MCD or XYZ?

2) The participants here are too few for a sampling of those who favor a smaller, quicker, more basic, more stripped down version of Viewer. In fact, Internet participants are too few for a sampling. It's unfortunate.

3) The lock/unlock commands are mere object tools. Too much work. The entire drawing needs edit blocking. One way to virtually "lock" a file is to save it on an empty active layer and not allow access to other layers. And select items can remain locked/ unlocked.

4) There are other hazards and potential misunderstandings beyond "editing of drawings." If your practice is not affected, then you would not be affected even if you distributed the full version of VW.

5) VulcanGrip, I often include just a massing model in most drawings (too bad my old computer doesn't support OpenGL). For quickie presentations, I indeed use textures. And sometimes animations, too.

6) Live long and prosper. <<<<< SMoooOOooooOOchh >>>>>> (if only you knew how grotesque I look right now, you would feel disgusted) grin.gif" border="0

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It is quite simple. Whether you think it is a good decision or a poor decision, the decision was made based upon feedback. Therefore, more people like the viewer than not (significantly more). As for the plagiarism issues, there are none that are more prevalent than without Viewer. Let's face it; if you are worried that someone is going to steal your design, they will do so with or without VectorWorks, and certainly not with Viewer. You cannot save with Viewer. This means you cannot make changes and save them. Think of the convenience of this for you! No more do you have to create 5 or 6 .plt files to give to your service bureau. Now simply create sheets and have the bureau open them for you. No more file conversions... native VectorWorks files! There are far more positive aspects than negative aspects. The features mentioned for removal would negate more benefits than not and also be a highly expensive process to retool VectorWorks. In short, Viewer is a good product option for the user to share his information with clients and collaborators. A non-architect such as myself could not possibly duplicate effectively your design even though I have used the product for 2 years. There are few people who actually can do what you do. Also, a way to easily protect your work is to save to CD, mail it to yourself with a seal across the opening. The post-mark is a federal stamp with a date that would verify your claims in a court of law if you needed to sue someone for stealing your ideas. This would work at least on a temporary basis.

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Brian O ]

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