3d component of symbols disappearing

[Pat Stanford]

Sometimes it just takes the right person with the right amount of time, energy and persistance to help figure out what the problem is.

Until you, MichaelK and Brudgers started focusing on this and developing a repeatable test case, it was pretty much a case of "sometime stuff disappears and I don't know how or why."

That makes it really hard for the programmers to fix it if they can't see it broken. Now that there have been repeatable test cases submitted, I would expect this to jump up the priority list.

Thanks to all of you for figuring this out.

[billtheia]

Just frustrated that the PAYING CUSTOMERS had to spend a bunch of time troubleshooting to make it easier for the PAID PROGRAMMERS to fix the software.

This PAYING CUSTOMER has lost MANY hours to this problem over the past three years. I sincerely hope that you are right and that this issue will be fixed soon.

[brudgers]

Figuring out something is a bug is frustrating enough.

Jumping through hoops to report them is just another level of distraction.

At a certain point, people start treating bugs as "just the way Vectorworks is."

After losing an hour or two, I know I often resent the feeling that I'm debugging an application I paid for.

[billtheia]

Figuring out something is a bug is frustrating enough.

Jumping through hoops to report them is just another level of distraction.

At a certain point, people start treating bugs as "just the way Vectorworks is."

After losing an hour or two, I know I often resent the feeling that I'm debugging an application I paid for.

Exactly.

[Ozzie]

Money...I suppose but with NNA changing to an annual release cycle "so that we can reliably make plans for our CAD budgets," I can only assume that VW is making MORE money for them than it has in the past

Have you seen this?

http://www.nemetschek.com/en/no_cache/home/investor_relations/announcements/news_detail/article//mitteilung-nemetschek-legt-jahresabschluss-vor-und-wappnet-sich-fuer-die-krise.html

This PAYING CUSTOMER has lost MANY hours to this problem over the past three years. I sincerely hope that you are right and that this issue will be fixed soon

How about a VW coffee mug or hat, even a VW mouse pad??

[billtheia]

Money...I suppose but with NNA changing to an annual release cycle "so that we can reliably make plans for our CAD budgets," I can only assume that VW is making MORE money for them than it has in the past

Have you seen this?

http://www.nemetschek.com/en/no_cache/home/investor_relations/announcements/news_detail/article//mitteilung-nemetschek-legt-jahresabschluss-vor-und-wappnet-sich-fuer-die-krise.html

This PAYING CUSTOMER has lost MANY hours to this problem over the past three years. I sincerely hope that you are right and that this issue will be fixed soon

How about a VW coffee mug or hat, even a VW mouse pad??

Not sure where you're heading with that, Ozzie.

"...revenues increased by 2.9 percent to 150.4 million euros, two thirds of which was generated abroad." Sounds like they're making more money to me - even during a global financial crisis. Not sure where "abroad" is but I'm pretty sure I'm part of it.

How about a discount on my next upgrade?

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Thanks for clarifying the steps for the issue. I've been chasing a similar problem through multiple VW versions but was never able to replicate it...until now...

[brudgers]

Another case of, "that's just the way vectorworks is."

[Ozzie]

Another case of, "that's just the way vectorworks is."

No

A HUGE problem that as yet has not been solved

but I bet NNA is working on it

Not sure where you're heading with that, Ozzie

The 150.4 million euros I think is for the whole group

So how many software appliactions is that?

What percentage of that is generated by VW?

Lots of other questions

Which is the best selling software; second best; third....?

European origins fine

With discussions here past regarding BIM; engineering needs and the like what potentialy in the future does the group have up its sleave available to address those issues?

Who knows what the plans are - just found it interesting

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Another case of, "that's just the way vectorworks is."

Not necessarily.

I echo what Pat posted.

[Kool Aid]

The 150.4 million euros I think is for the whole group

So how many software appliactions is that?

What percentage of that is generated by VW?

So, Nemetschek has only 270000 users and a revenue of 150 million euros; that is 550 ? per user.

(I'm saying "only" because at one stage VW alone was supposed to have more. Lo and behold, the VW page tells us that More than 450,000 designers in more than 85 countries rely on Vectorworks technology. So, based on averages, VW generates some 167 % of the total group revenue. Now, since AllPlan costs 10 times as much as VW, the average is not applicable, but you get the point.)

However, Autodesk reports having 9 million users and an annual revenue of roughly 1500 million ?, ie. 170 ? per user. Whoo-ee! Autodesk's revenue has dropped by a third in a year; Nemetschek's by 11%.

Not that I'd understand anything about quartal capitalism.

[brudgers]

Not necessarily.

I echo what Pat posted.

It didn't become a bug just because a bug report was filed.

I don't know which is worse, if NNA had reports of the behaviour bet set it on the back burner because Users weren't able to replicate it, or if nobody reported it because it was just seen as within Vectorworks background range of bugginess.

In my opinion, figuring out how to replicate a bug is an Engineer's job not the user's.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

In my opinion, figuring out how to replicate a bug is an Engineer's job not the user's.

At some level, I'd agree w. you - but you're missing something if you put this entirely on the engineers' shoulders. Though the analogy isn't 100 accurate, this isn't totally unlike having an issue w. your new car addressed by the dealer/manufacturer. Which of the following will get better/quicker results:?

"My car makes a funny noise. I want you to find the noise and fix it."

"My car makes a metallic grinding noise whenever I'm braking and making right-hand turns. It seems to be coming from the front, right-hand side of the car. I've talked to several other owners who are having the same issue."

W/o real-world info from the owner/user the mechanic/engineer might NEVER find the issue.

[brudgers]

In my opinion, figuring out how to replicate a bug is an Engineer's job not the user's.

At some level, I'd agree w. you - but you're missing something if you put this entirely on the engineers' shoulders. Though the analogy isn't 100 accurate, this isn't totally unlike having an issue w. your new car addressed by the dealer/manufacturer. Which of the following will get better/quicker results:?

"My car makes a funny noise. I want you to find the noise and fix it."

"My car makes a metallic grinding noise whenever I'm braking and making right-hand turns. It seems to be coming from the front, right-hand side of the car. I've talked to several other owners who are having the same issue."

W/o real-world info from the owner/user the mechanic/engineer might NEVER find the issue.

Guess where the analogy between simple mechanical systems and software breaks down.

And your mechanic doesn't say, "Oh, we fixed that in the 2010 model. Sounds like it's time for you to upgrade."

[billtheia]

...And your mechanic doesn't say, "Oh, we fixed that in the 2010 model. Sounds like it's time for you to upgrade."

Now THAT'S funny.

I got an email from NNA today saying that this does appear to be a bug and that it has been "forwarded to our engineers for further investigation."

[michaelk]

I'll echo Andrew's echo of Pat.

I expect there to be some bugs. IMO, if there aren't any bugs, they aren't trying hard enough to stretch the capabilities of the software.

And I'm sure that bugs like this - that are hard to duplicate - are equally hard to isolate and fix.

FWIW, I got an email from someone at NNA saying that they are looking at it.

There may be a discussion to be had on the process of submitting bugs and wish list items and a feed back loop in those processes that may have made this and other issues easier to isolate sooner - topic for another thread. We all have bugs and wish lists we we would like to see fixed immediately, and not knowing where they are on the list, or if they are even on it at all, can be frustrating.

But in my experience, it seems like NNA has been attentive to many bugs and wish list items.

If this really is a bug - I'm not excluding the possibility that I screwed something up - now that we know how to recreate it, I expect there will be a fix in the near future.

Even though I have seen this issue several times in the past, until last weekend I would have found it difficult to isolate, describe, and reproduce well enough to make the problem clear to NNA engineers. So until I could point to something and say, "there it is, please fix that", I'd be happy to supply a list of things I rather see the engineers spending their time on.

But nobody asked me for that list

michaelk

[brudgers]

I guess you're missing the point.

Long time Vectorworks users expect and accept such a high number of them that they don't bother reporting them.

You put up with this bug for years across eight or nine releases (if you first encountered it with the initial release of 2008).

The user is not supposed to be finding bugs...let alone isolating them.

That's what test engineering is for.

That's what alpha testing is for.

That's what beta testing is for.

[jamesmise]

Thank you, Thank You, Thank You to all posters on this subject. You just saved me tons of work.

I'm using VW 2010 with Renderworks. I lost the 3d portion of all my hybrid symbols. They came up as 2d symbols in the resource browser.

I tried everything.

I finally turned on all the classes in the drawing, saved my file and closed it. When I reopened it, all my symbols were back.

This problem seemed to occur when I was doing some extensive editing on the 3d part of a hybrid symbol. During this time, my file was saved many times. I saved the file in the middle of editing, took it home and opened it to continue editing and that's when I noticed the problem.

I would love to give each one of you $10. Please send me your address and credit card number. Don't forget the little 3-digit code.

Peace!

[michaelk]

Bill

I think SP3 fixed this. Have you noticed?

michaelk

[billtheia]

I haven't tested it yet. I didn't see anything in the release notes, though.

[michaelk]

Not fixed yet - just happened again in SP3.

[billtheia]

Bummer.

So glad we spent all that time filing the bug.

[michaelk]

Looks like SP4 fixed it.

Does NNA publish a list of update fixes and improvements?

[Yoginathaswami]

Aloha, Michael:

See here http://tinyurl.com/23cbtn4

not extensive but lists few things

?"This Service Pack has a number of critical fixes, especially in the areas of notes, callouts, constraints, and general stability."

Edited June 24, 2010 by Yoginathaswami

[michaelk]

Aloha, Yoginatha

I saw that, too. I was hoping for an even more specific list.

mk