From Autocad to Vectorworks..

[phased]

in the past autocad has been my drafting tool of choice, but my new office is all about mac and vectorworks.

i'm trying to get my head around vectorworks, but the similarities (or should i say, the slight variations) are killing my workflow.

are there any tips or tricks i should know in making the cross-over? any useful tutorials floating about aimed at the autocad user?

the tutorials that came with 08 were pretty much useless for me. i'm using this as a basic 2d drafting tool.

perhaps somebody could be so kind as to quickly explain, in lay man's terms, the difference between groups and classes? and more importantly, when to use one and not the other?

also, is there an explode command? ie. breaking polylines into individual lines.

an extend command?

thanks, guys! i may be an autocad guy, but i do like this program. i'm just slow as hell for the moment.

[Pat Stanford]

Check out http://www.objectofdesign.com/2007/06/30/terminology-autocad-vs-vectorworks/ for a decent writeup on terminaology comparisons.

Classes in VW are equivalent to layers in AC.

Groups in VW are equivalent to anonymous blocks.

Decompose (Modify menu) offer similar functionality to Explode

HTH.

[GWS]

If using mainly 2D, 'Convert to lines' is very useful. (Modify>Convert>Convert to lines)

[Kool Aid]

It is? Never needed that, but then again, I've never used AutoCAD.

Pray tell what are the situations where converting a polygon/polyline to lines is useful. (But then again, I've never been a draughtsman?)

Anyway:

Phased, mate: you probably need to unlearn as much as possible.

I used to have these Rehabilition Camps for AutoCAD Users Anonymous. The withdrawal symptoms were horrific! The mere thought of not being able to tap commands on the keyboard threw quite a few recovering addicts to fits and convulsions.

I'm making the semi-educated guess that your ?new office? does architectural or building design. Just unlearn the convoluted process of deconstruction (of the idea to a drawing) and deconstruction (of the drawing to a building) and start to think via walls, slabs, doors, windows, roofs, column, beams etc. You know: the things buildings are made of.

[brudgers]

Simple answer is that you can't do stuff the way you did in Autocad.

Biggest graphic difference is that all objects have fill.

Simple technique that gets you a long way: adding and subtracting rectangles/polygons to create more complex shapes using the right click.

Biggest shortcomings: limited customization...a lot of things are hard coded, interfaces are not really open ended.

Mental picture: Vectorworks is more a hodgepodge of tools rather than a truly integrated application. Coming from autocad you will expect to be able to something as a logical extension of the things you can do. But very frequently you won't be able to. On the other hand there are some things you will be able to do elegantly and easily. But you will always be aware that you're making trade offs.

Other shortcomings: Lousy documentation. Nothing approaching the sort of information provided by Autodesk Press. The tutorials are more like a getting started book. There are many many areas that are grossly underdocumented or undocumented.

On the bright side: Hey it's a job.

[billtheia]

Attempting to use VW as if it was ACAD will surely kill workflow.

In ACAD, you draw with lines. Lots of trimming and extending.

In VW, you draw with shapes - using them to obscure other objects, adding and subtracting them, giving them colors, patterns, and hatches.

In ACAD, you generally use extend, stretch and trim commands to manipulate 2d objects.

In VW, you select objects and stretch them with handles.

I used to be pretty dang fast when I was an ACAD user. I think that I'm even faster in VW. The key, for me, was embracing the differences between ACAD & VW. Trying to force VW to work like ACAD was an exercise in frustration and futility.

Consider the typical foundation section. In ACAD, I'd have drawn 7 (14 clicks, 2 per line) lines and then added a hatch. In VW I draw 2 rectangles (4 clicks, 2 per rectangle) and set their fill attributes to a concrete hatch. I find the use of shapes much faster.

[mmyoung]

The use of classes and design layers is a matter either of personal workflow or shop standards. I don't have an iron-clad set of rules.

You can make class data 3 layers deep, by hyphenating the classes like this:

superstruct-wood

superstruct-wood-fittings

superstruct-wood-trim

superstruct-steel

superstruct-steel-beams

superstruct-steel-fasteners

superstruct-steel-tubing

They show up in the Navigator just in a long list, as above. But in the Tool Bar dropdown, they reveal a hierarchy:

-superstruct

----wood

-------fittings

-------trim

----steel

-------beams

-------fasterners

-------tubing

..

Design Layers can be scaled, rotated, and rendered independently. They allow you to have several, complete drawings which share classes.

This can become insanely complex. It's useful during design investigation, because you can put a lot of information onto one screen and manipulate it in big chunks.

Extract what you need to present in Viewports.

..

You can layer Viewports on top of one another and adjust the visibility of each, put "scrim" layers between them (objects filled with white at different opacities and so forth) which allows you to reveal exactly what you want.

Edited November 6, 2009 by mmyoung

[phased]

some very useful tips here, guys. many thanks.

i think the whole drafting in lines vs. shapes really hit the nail on the head. i gotta relearn the ways in which i create my drawings.

and yes, i do occasionally find myself typing in commands a la autocad!

a couple of things are stretching me as of today..

classes. presumably one should class objects they want sharing the same line weight together? what's the easiest way to alter line weights on a class? i tried doing this through the class settings, but whilst i wanted all these objects to share the same line weights, i wanted some filled and others empty, etc. so, this route didn't really work out.

hatches. is there an simple way to rotate/reorient hatches? so far i'm resorting to editing the hatch file. pretty painful if i have to do that a couple times per drawing.

and to the person questioning my use of 'convert to lines' - 'explode' would had to be one of my most used commands in autocad. can't believe no shortcut exists for this in VW?!

and yes, i'm in architecture. and yes, it's very handy to be able to turn on line weights in the drawing space.

[Ray Libby]

It would make it easier to answer some of your questions if your version of Vectorworks is known. It's best to create a signature with that info and computer specs including OS.

[brudgers]

Not having every command just a few key clicks away is another big difference from Autocad...obscure key combinations are not a substitute for mnemonic sequences of keys.

Classes should group objects around their role in the building...doors, windows, walls, etc. The class defaults should cover most objects.

It is often best to set the attributes of each object to "by class" and over ride them when needed.

Generally compared to Autocad hatches, Vectorworks hatches suck, though being able to have a solid fill cover behind them makes them suck a bit less.

But forget setting a base point for each hatch to get it to align properly. Can't be done.

There's more control with textures, but more overhead as well.

Finally, it's probably time to learn how to make life easier for others using your drawings. Stop using lines and exploding objects.

[billtheia]

As brudgers said, classes are best used to control visibility (turing things on and off) - setting objects to use line weight and fill "by class" and then overriding when you need something different. This is especially useful when you want to use viewports to show the same part of your model in different ways - you can override class attributes in SLVPs.

Again, brudgers nailed it with regard to hatches. VW's suck when compared to ACAD. Finally in VW2010, you can scale, orient, and set the origin for hatches without having to define a new hatch pattern.

[M5d]

But forget setting a base point for each hatch to get it to align properly. Can't be done.

I'm not sure what version brudgers is using but this is wrong from at least 2008. There are 2 ways to hatch objects. The first is to select a polygon or group of lines that enclose an area and choose the hatch tool, you then set the base point and angle as part of the command. The second method is to set the fill of an object in the attributes palette or in its class to a hatch pattern. Even if you use the second method, you can now retrospectively adjust the base point, scale, and angle in 2010 with the attributes mapping tool. If you're using 2010 the second method is probably the most flexible, however the first method does convert the hatch into a group, which can be entered for editing as lines.

I'm also an autocad refugee. In general I've found the graphic tools in vectorworks to be more flexible and powerful than their counterparts in autocad, as a result they're a little more complex and take a little longer to get conversant and proficient with.

[brudgers]

Non-associative hatches are a kludge...though the official term is "work around."

I'll add that there's nothing in Vectorworks that even comes close to ADT/AcadArchitecture materials - allowing 3d objects to hatch for line drawings and render photorealistically.

There are things that Vectorworks does well, and that's why I still live with the tradeoffs.

But I doubt I'd ever roll it out across a multi-person architecture firm.

[M5d]

The last version of acad I used was 2004 and I've never looked back, so I'm not really comparing apples with apples.

[brudgers]

I'm not talking about anything new.

ADT 2004 is the last version a licensed.

It wasn't a new feature then.

Edited November 7, 2009 by brudgers

[Kool Aid]

Non-associative hatches are a kludge...though the official term is "work around."

I'll add that there's nothing in Vectorworks that even comes close to ADT/AcadArchitecture materials - allowing 3d objects to hatch for line drawings and render photorealistically.

There are things that Vectorworks does well, and that's why I still live with the tradeoffs.

But I doubt I'd ever roll it out across a multi-person architecture firm.

Fear not. You'll never be in that situation!

Sean Flaherty, NNA's CEO, recently described a visit to a Japanese firm with 5000 licences.

EDIT

Of course, I would not use VW as it ships even in a one-person architectural firm.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Kool Aid

[M5d]

I'm not talking about anything new.

ADT 2004 is the last version a licensed.

It wasn't a new feature then.

My comment was just intended to say I'm out of touch with the Autodesk world, nothing specific, simply that my final comparison between A'cad and V'works was potentially unfair in my first post. Where I worked (over 6 years ago) had not graced us with ADT or Revit, so consequently I have a blind spot.

Honestly, I had assumed this thread was just about trying to help someone transitioning between the differences in plain vanilla 2D autocad drafting and 2D vectorworks drafting.

Interesting facts about ADT aside, I just wanted the original poster to know that they CAN set the origin or base point for a hatch quite easily if required.

[phased]

thanks again, guys. lots of useful information here.

another q - is there any way to draft in colours, a la autocad?

for those of you familiar with autocad, is it possible to replicate the whole layer (or class) = a different colour in the model space?

it just makes it really simple to see under what layer (class in VW) things are under, without having to click each individual item. i can get a little slack when i draft, but by having each layer colour coded, it generally keeps me in line as i get instant feedback on what is being drawn and where.

tia!

Edited November 8, 2009 by phased

[M5d]

Classes can have coloured attributes, and colours can be toggled on and off in viewports & when printing.

If you're referring to the use of line colours to correspond with line weights in Autocad, then, being in Australia, have a look at the ozcad standards palette which has been set up for a similar purpose. Ozcad provides some good movies on their use. I don't use them myself, as suggested above the better option is probably to get accustomed to classing objects by their function within the building and using class attributes to manage line weights.

Edited November 8, 2009 by M5d

[JBC]

phased, if you want to use the colors you set up in your classes you should either check the "Use at Creation" box in the Edit Class dialog, or set the fill and pen color of the attributes palette to "Class Style" before you create your objects. Without either these options if the attributes palette is set up to the color black your lines will end up black regardless of what the class is set to. You then end with what your talking about with having to select the object in order to get an idea what class it resides in/on.

[Nessuno]

Doesn't your office have some sort of standards for classes, layers etc. If you are unfamiliar with VW and just going off on your own it seems like there could be some big conflicts with what the others are doing.