How good is Vectorworks modelling?

[Cadplan Architecture]

I might be opening a can of worms here but I want to start using Vectorworks 2008 for architectural modeling but I'm really not sure it's up to the job. The reason I say that is that in my previous job I designed exhibition stands and I used VW only for 2D plans and then modeled them in great detail using Form Z.

It was quite a learning curve but I found FZ to be far easier to use for 3D

modeling and with far superior capabilities for smooth surfacing and intuitive designing on screen. Also the manipulation of models on screen was dead easy and the lighting controls and rendering quality far better.

Can anyone say whether 3D modeling in VW 2008 has improved on say VW 10 or 11, as I'm thinking that I might need to purchase a dedicated modeling program now like Form Z or Modo etc.

[Bob Holtzmann]

There was a significant improvement in 3D performance from VW2008 to Vw2009, when the parasolid engine was introduced. And Vw2010 has much better manipulation with 3D snapping.

3D modeling had little improvement in versions 11 and 12, except for the viewport.

Other modelers might be easier, if you're not concerned with the BIM functions, and producing construction documents.

[Jonathan Pickup]

you should certainly look at the new movies on Vectorworks 2010, and if you can find the top 10 tips, watch those as well

[Jershaun]

I would suggest you get a demo version of 2008 or 2010. For me 2010 was a waste of time and I don't see the benefits of parasolid. Workflow hasn't changed from earlier versions. My personal feeling is the 3d in 2010 is clumsy because it's unfinished. One still can't draw or manipulate 2D objects in a 3D view so the "unified view" isn't truly unified. Test the package first to see whether it suits you then buy. Just be careful by all the hype. Test. Test. Test it for yourself.

[Ray Libby]

Parasolids has added many benefits. 3D snapped is much improved, walls have improved, etc. I think VW has progressed very much in 3D.

[Cadplan Architecture]

You have got some impressive visuals on your site. Were they all created just using Vectorworks?

I'm interested in your comments on Parasolids though as surely this is what sets 2009/2010 apart? I'm assuming then that everything you show in your visuals has been generated using the 3D tools that are in Vectorworks 2008 ?

The office lobby with the circular desk is a good one, you've got patterned flooring and the glass reflections are very good.

On the miscellaneous page did you model the tubular frame which suspends the chrome balls?

One thing I find awkward with Vectorworks even 2008, is manipulating the complete model to get precise views. The controls seem to be unchanged from the early versions. I had a quick look at modelling last week and I also found that there are very limited options for texture controls particularly compared to Form Z.

Thanks AJ

[Kool Aid]

I might be opening a can of worms here but I want to start using Vectorworks 2008 for architectural modeling but I'm really not sure it's up to the job. The reason I say that is that in my previous job I designed exhibition stands and I used VW only for 2D plans and then modeled them in great detail using Form Z

Let's take a step back, shall we?

What do you mean by ?architectural modeling?? Visualisation or modeling the actual building as it will be built?

VW is a CAD-program, with a focus on the latter. Form?Z is a generic 3D-visualisation program, with a focus on the former.

Different worms for different cans. Even if you are to to be part of actual architectural design & documentation projects, the workflow may be such that only dumb visualisation is required; for this Form?Z would, I believe, be vastly superior.

Should you, however, be involved in preparation of the ?real thing?, Form?Z is, I believe, useless. No, not useless, but a cul-de-sac.

[CipesDesign]

My 2?? with proper training and practice you can do some very excellent models in VW's. I have yet to find an object that I couldn't model, however sometimes it takes some serious thought as to how best to approach a particular problem. VW's gives me the tools I need - I get to figure out how best to use them. P

[Kool Aid]

Maybe, but why bother? If another program does it better, what's the point?

Perchance, training provided by you to Zaha Hadid, Hani Rashid, Frank Gehry &al. would make them Converts, chanting Hare VW, hare VW, hare hare, VW hare?

No, I don't think so.

[GWS]

VW allows me to produce technical drawings for engineering companies from 3D models which in turn allow me to convey the design in an easy visual style with high presentation levels and all for a reasonable price.

The technical side is very important and just a modelling program would not do.

Horses for courses!!

[Jershaun]

You have got some impressive visuals on your site. Were they all created just using Vectorworks?

I'm interested in your comments on Parasolids though as surely this is what sets 2009/2010 apart? I'm assuming then that everything you show in your visuals has been generated using the 3D tools that are in Vectorworks 2008 ?

The office lobby with the circular desk is a good one, you've got patterned flooring and the glass reflections are very good.

On the miscellaneous page did you model the tubular frame which suspends the chrome balls?

One thing I find awkward with Vectorworks even 2008, is manipulating the complete model to get precise views. The controls seem to be unchanged from the early versions. I had a quick look at modelling last week and I also found that there are very limited options for texture controls particularly compared to Form Z.

Thanks AJ

Thanks for your kind words. Most images where created in vw10.5 and vw12.5 and just a couple were done in vw2008 but none was done with vw2010 and yes, when I model in vw, I use most of vw 3D tools. However Trees, Cars and people are either done in C4D or they're 3ds library files imported into C4D.

After using earlier versions (7 to 2008), I don't notice any major benefits in vw2010-no speed enhancements-no production speedup-no "REAL" BIM functionality. Also,

1. Unified View is just a bug fix with a glorified name change. Also its a nuisance to work with. One has to press 3 or 4 buttons/commands everytime one wants to use it. One can't draw 2D objects while in Unified View (why call it that, I don't know) therefore one has to always switch back and forth from Unified view and each time go through that process. It's just a stupid way of working.

2. Planar objects are extremely rigid. One can't do much with them. One can't modify them with the cursor. It doesn't interact with 3D objects. It just feels cumbersome. What's the point of this?

3. The contraints haven't improved although they've incorporated 2D DCM. There is an excerise that AutoCAD handles with ease however vw2010 fails to do. ie. draw an arc tangent to a line and 2 circles that are fixed with their relationship to each other.

4. NNA lies. On their documentation on their web site, they say vw2009 has multi-core support. Try adding 10000 cylinders into a solid and watch the task manager.

5. Sloped sills are wrong or behave 'wrongly'.

6. Shadow Catcher reflectivety. It's part of the Lightworks package that they have licenced. Why not include this shader in vw2010. TurboCAD had this from 1999. NNA is either lazy or they don't know what they're doing.

7. The new stair tool has German text all over it (I use the Australian version-how unprofessional is that) and it's so lame I won't even touch it.

Anything so far I model in 2010 I can in 2008. In fact in vw2010 I can't snap to a closed "extrude alone path" with all corners curved. However vw2008 allowed me to snap to parts of it.

As you say, vw hasn't changed much from earlier versions which I find frustrating. There is a distinct 2D environment and 3D environment and one can not work with 2D and 3D objects at the same time. This is a very old way of working and it's working environment and workflow is becoming very dated. 3D has grown and changed drastically the last couple of years (look at Bonzai3d, SpaceClaim, SolidWorks, to name a few) and NNA has in the meantime stuck it's head in the ground and persisted with an old outdated way of working. Example is the 3D graphics environment of vw doesn't make use of graphics cards. Another is one can't draw a 2D shape on a 3D object (aligned plane) in a 3D view and then extrude it or something.

The "office lobby" image was done long ago but from what I remember the lights were from a library, the floor was an image/material applied to 2 floors (1 round and 1 surrounding the round one), and all this was rendered in C4D. The "chrome balls" image was fully modeled in vw12 and rendered with Maxwell.

HTH,

Edited October 28, 2009 by Shaun

[Tom G.]

I would suggest that some want Vwks to be a high-end renderer and it's not. I design a whole lot of structure; only a small part needs to be carefully rendered. So it works great for me.

If your needs are reversed and you prefer the majority of your work rendered as best as possible, by all means add a more robust program. I'd love to try one too but the cost in time and money will have to wait.

[John Meunier]

VW is great for a drafting program. Especial for its price. As long as your not going for photorealistic images, VW will work great. We use it all the time for building renderings and the result is satisfactory. We underuse the 3D capabilities of VW, (nurbs, lofts, etc.) because our buildings mostly are created with the hybrid plug-ins, walls, doors, windows. All the basic elements.

If your drawings natural shapes with very fluid curves there are other programs that handle this easier than VW.

[Cadplan Architecture]

I'm fascinated about how you drew the balls frame. If I was doing it in Form Z it would be easy to extrude a circle along a path of the shape, but I wasn't aware that you could do this with Vectorworks even 2008. I can't check using the VWonline help as my Firefox crashes on opening, but could you say please hpw you did it as it would be dead handy for drawing things like tubular furniture frames or curved trusses.

thanks

AJ

[Cadplan Architecture]

I think you are spot on there John. I guess basically Vectorworks is what it first started out as and that is a really fast and simple programme for drawing architectural or other floorplans or 2D views. I know it has always had the 3D architectural features, but this side of it doesn't perform as well as the 2D functions in my opinion, the 3D is also a bit clumsy and too time consuming to use for high quality imaging so it's not really cost effective on small jobs where clients want interior shots complete with furniture and lighting. As you say It's satisfactory for building renderings which is fine, I'm at the stage where I want to offer clients interior visuals with custom designed furniture etc which isn't in the standard libraries (I'm Bristol UK), and I know that from my exhibition work in the past that the modeling capabilities are a bit limited particularly with rounded objects, and that setting up views and lighting was very time consuming, I just hoped that the latest versions had moved on a bit more than they seem to.

In particular I find that manipulating a 3D model of say a house is very fiddly, in Form Z you can spin it around and zoom in and out instantly and with great control, I have never found it possible to do this with VW.

No it's not just about getting super photorealistic images, the frustration with Vectorworks for me is that it is still a very awkward programme for anything other than fairly basic 3D, and considering that they have split the whole thing into separate software packages and jacked the prices right up, it's disappointing.

AJ

[CipesDesign]

Hi Shaun, One note to add to your extensive post above (and you might be pleased to note): In Unified View [AKA: Stacked Layers] you can indeed draw 2d shapes while in 3d views. You just need to set the preference by going to menu item: View/Unified View Options/Display Screen Objects [View/Stack Layer Options/Display 2d Objects]. This actually allows one to set a 3d view (any 3d view) then create a 2d object which can then be extruded in that particular orientation. I find it highly useful, and even more so in the latest iteration, as they have finally fixed the annoying Z Plane jump which used to occur when switching from one active layer to another while in Unified View mode.... Anyhow, very very nice work, and impressive that it was done in VW's! Kudos!

[Frank O'Kobrick]

We generate most of are 3d objects in VW while creating our construction documents and We do a lot of initial renderings w/ RW. For photo realistic renders we export to Strata 3d. There we add textures, background, figures...

RenderWorks is a great value does a nice job. It is what we use most of the time, but it cannot compete w/ Strata visually IMHO. Creating architectural 3d object is much easier in VW & with the hybrid features we are able to use them right inside our 2d plans as well as 3d objects exported to Strata

Strata 3d is a great 3d renderer for the price & works well with VW. Each program makes me appreciate the capabilities of the other.

I think both of these are great products & priced reasonably compared to what else is out there.

[Jershaun]

I find it highly useful, and even more so in the latest iteration, as they have finally fixed the annoying Z Plane jump which used to occur when switching from one active layer to another while in Unified View mode.... Anyhow, very very nice work, and impressive that it was done in VW's! Kudos!

Firstly, thanks for your kind words as well.

Secondly, the key word there is "fixed", therefore I say all it is, is a bug fix.

In Unified View [AKA: Stacked Layers] you can indeed draw 2d shapes while in 3d views. You just need to set the preference by going to menu item: View/Unified View Options/Display Screen Objects [View/Stack Layer Options/Display 2d Objects]. This actually allows one to set a 3d view (any 3d view) then create a 2d object which can then be extruded in that particular orientation.

This is not what I meant. Imagine one draws a pyramid, Align your working plane to suit one of the sides, now try to draw a 2D shape on that working plan 'without' changing views, make changes/modifications to the shape before making it 3d. AutoCAD does this and their environment is truly "unified". Also why does vw put the extrusion along path back onto plan? The user has to then take the result and re-align it to where is supposed to be. This is not how one supposed to work in 3D.

Hope this makes sense.

I'm fascinated about how you drew the balls frame. If I was doing it in Form Z it would be easy to extrude a circle along a path of the shape, but I wasn't aware that you could do this with Vectorworks even 2008. I can't check using the VWonline help as my Firefox crashes on opening, but could you say please hpw you did it as it would be dead handy for drawing things like tubular furniture frames or curved trusses.

thanks

AJ

Yes AJ, that's exactly how I did it. "Extrude along path" command. Select a 2D shape (eg. circle) and select another 2D or 3D shape (eg. rectangle or nurbs) and use "extrude along path". However, vw2010 can't snap to the result if the corners are rounded, and I thought vw2010 was supposed to be better with 3d snapping.

No it's not just about getting super photorealistic images, the frustration with Vectorworks for me is that it is still a very awkward programme for anything other than fairly basic 3D

AJ

I agree with you. Additionally, there has't been any leaps foward regarding 3D in the last 3 versions therefore vw today is exactly is how I would use it if I was using vw8.5. NNA has lost the plot on 3d.

Yesterday, I was trying to model with vw2010-it crashed so many times I lost count. Secondly, vw failed to produce results with a lot of what I was trying to do eg. I was trying to loft some fairly simple shapes and they refused to loft. These are the benefits of Parasolid. So yes, anything other than basic architecture is pathetic really.

[Cadplan Architecture]

Thanks Shaun, could you just explain how to make that 3D path please?

Yes Vectorworks is still fairly primitive for 3D which is disappointing. Form Z is brilliant, you can select edges or faces of objects and deform them either by click drag or inputting the x,y,z coordinates, it's a true 3D modeling programme but useless for 2D. As someone said earlier it's horses for courses which is fine, but Ideally it would be nice to have one powerful software programme that would do what VW & FZ does without having to pay out big bucks for both.

AJ

[M5d]

Also why does vw put the extrusion along path back onto plan? The user has to then take the result and re-align it to where is supposed to be.

If you convert the 2D path object into a nurb while in the desired plane and before doing the extrude along a path the extrusion will be correctly orientated. It does seem like an additional step that could be built into the extrude along a path command however.

[Richard Perrine]

Eeek. I was thinking about using VW as our architecture AND basic engineering software for a high school course. It sounds like the 3D modeling tool set is not popular.

The James Bond movies Casino Royale has a passenger airliner built using VW Design. How bad can the 3D modeling be?

Also, someone earlier mentioned that VW was not "real" BIM. Could someone explain?

EDIT:

Is there a program that allows you to do architecture, better than basic 3D modeling and BIM all at once? :confused: My biggest frustration is finding good FREE information concerning the details of what you can do with VW in terms of 3D modeling. I'm not going to buy a manual on modeling if I'm not committed to buying the software. Any FREE tutorials on its capabilities?

Thank you.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Richard Perrine

[VincentCuclair]

I was thinking about using VW as our architecture AND basic engineering software for a high school course.

Well,what you pay for is what you get, except perhaps for VW . Thing is there are many freeform modeling apps better than VW and there are many 2D/3D Architecture Cad apps. beter than VWs however there are only several apps. that have both and even fewer that are good at it, these are usually also the ones that are capable of BIM. IMHO the best, but by far the most complex to learn and most expensive is Bentley Triforma Architecture. Don't know about the freeform capabilities of Revit (also expensive) however as far as I know VW is the most price worthy option capable of all this it is good, however certainly not the best (yet). As an architect I have not happened upon any shapes/objects that I have not been able to create and render in VWs.

It sounds like the 3D modeling tool set is not popular.

These discussions you will find on the forums of all the available apps......there is always room for improvement, again it is good but far from perfect.

Also, someone earlier mentioned that VW was not "real" BIM. Could someone explain?

Well I don't think there are 2 people that have the same definition for what BIM is, BIM is developing, continually expanding and becoming more and more all encompassing for each month that goes, every time a CAD app introduces new capabilities within BIM the others are out dated and not 'real BIM'. In this case I don't know why they said this however again IMHO VW is a BIM app however it is not a BIM pioneer but instead tries to keep up with all the new developments ie. you can do most BIM with VW however it can be complicated and you might need a lot of workarounds and possibly even learn Vectorscript to make your own developments. (you see thats the catch with VW, if someone asks can you do this or that with VW the answer is almost always yes BUT not out of the box, you'll need to learn the whole program plus a lot extra before you can, does that count?)

Out of the box VW shouldn't compete with the likes of ArchiCAD, Revit, ADT, Chief Architect, Sketch up, 3D Studio etc. etc. and even in some cases Bentley but it does in many cases........that says a lot.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Vincent C

[Jonathan Pickup]

many High schools use Vectorworks for architecture and 3D modeling. There are some great manuals available, and Vectorworks is easy to learn.

Edited March 10, 2010 by archoncad

[Richard Perrine]

not necessarily a complaint, but it's amazing how few FREE quality resources are available for VW. i frequent the Cinema 4D forums and free, quality tutorials abound. too bad, because some of us would like to see more detail in terms of functionality before making such an investment.

open to be corrected on this, but even the VW video tuts are inadequate.

[Ozzie]

and Vectorworks is easy to learn

I do not believe this is true as you have discovered and in essence part of what Vincent is saying above

nor though are other cad apps easy to learn

what Jonathon may be saying is - it is easy to buy and pay for his manuals and services but that is another story

the power of VW is amazing but show me comprehensive deep and detailed training resources for Worksheets or Vectorscript as an example

I think that NNA is improving over time the resources they provide and should keep along that path

Edited March 12, 2010 by Ozzie