Width & Length

[WhoCanDo]

Is anyone else having trouble with width and length of a rectangle in the Object Info box?

Try this exercise:

A client who does not know anything about VW was describing an outline he wanted manufactured.

He said I should start with a rectangel 200mm wide and 500mm high, so I drew that on VW.

Then he said that he had made a mistake and it should be 500mm wide and 200mm high, so I rotated the rectangle.

He then wanted me to start in the top left corner of this rectangle and make a cutout 50mm wide and 100mm high. I duplicated the first rectangle and, from Object Info, I chose "Width" and changed it to 50 and Height to 100.

We made this item in multiple quantites but it was wrong.

This is because some "smart" person has changed VW so that if a rectangle is rotated then width is length and length is width.

Please, please can someone tell this person to look up the specs on their monitor! It will be x wide and y high as everything else in life is and it doesn't change when it is rotated.

Now VW2010 has followed on with the same quirk.

[michaelk]

I think it has always been thus. Or at least for a long time.

I'm pretty sure that this behavior would be categorized as "a feature, not a bug."

Imagine you had drawn the rectangle, extruded it, angled the extrude 45?, subtracted another solid from it, and then mirrored it.

By applying a sufficient number of double clicks

[WhoCanDo]

I am not sure when it changed but VW12 was correct and every version back to Minicad 4 was correct.

You are correct michaelk, when you change the rectangle to a polygon or extrude it to 3D then it does have a constant width and length after rotation but this should not be the case when it is a "rectangle".

I use rectangles all the time when drawing a layout and rotate & reshape them all the time for "clip surface". This is now extremely difficult because I have to now check W & H before I reshape a rotated rectangle for the next process.

[michaelk]

whoops!

That went before I was done composing...

I was about to say something (only half way intelligent) about using symbols and working planes...

But I take your point. In a 2D only world it should behave like you want.

I'll have to go back and look at VW12. I don't remember it switching H&W when rotating...

Pressing send for real...

michaelk

[ccroft]

Before this behavior was introduced the wish list was full of people asking for the current behavior, but perhaps with a different implementation.

What people wanted was for rectangles to remain rectangles when they were rotated something other than 90 or 180?. A reasonable request for those of us who use rectangles for layouts on angles in 2D.

Previous to this if you rotated a rectangle 45? it became a polygon and lost the ability to edit height and width in OIP. Many of us used a custom PIO to get around this limitation.

If memory serves, that's why it happened. Undoubtedly the new tool has it's problems and needs some work. Maybe it should know when it's been rotated an increment of 90? and display itself in the old style. Maybe not. Not sure what the implications of this might be for 3D work.

Have to say that for me at least the new tool is far better than old one or the PIO I used for boxes on angles.

[Ride]

Convert the rectangle to a polygon and you'll have the x-y's back in order. Extra steps, but might eliminate any confusion.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Is anyone else having trouble with width and length of a rectangle in the Object Info box?

Try this exercise:

A client who does not know anything about VW was describing an outline he wanted manufactured.

He said I should start with a rectangel 200mm wide and 500mm high, so I drew that on VW.

Then he said that he had made a mistake and it should be 500mm wide and 200mm high, so I rotated the rectangle.

He then wanted me to start in the top left corner of this rectangle and make a cutout 50mm wide and 100mm high. I duplicated the first rectangle and, from Object Info, I chose "Width" and changed it to 50 and Height to 100.

We made this item in multiple quantites but it was wrong.

This is because some "smart" person has changed VW so that if a rectangle is rotated then width is length and length is width.

Please, please can someone tell this person to look up the specs on their monitor! It will be x wide and y high as everything else in life is and it doesn't change when it is rotated.

Now VW2010 has followed on with the same quirk.

Well, I think you are totally wrong on this one. The rectangle tool is working like it should be. When you take a piece of paper, and write down width and height on each side, then you'll have your rectangle in front of you like it should be. Now, turn it 90 degrees. See? When rotating a rectangle, the width stays the width and so does the height. This info is also in the oip, so if you have done this wrong, it's your fault because you didn't look at the oip correctly.

The rectangle is an object, and an objects keeps it's statistics, no matter how you rotate it in space. The error you are making is to assume that all info on distances are related to the screen co?rdinates. Keeping your way of thinking in mind, answer me this question: when you rotate your rectangle 45?, what's the width and what's the lenght? Wright, you can't answer that!

So don't go blaming the program for something you didn't think through or didn't take the time to understand how it all works and just assuming things. And by the way, when you drew the rectangle to cut out, didn't you noticed that it was wrong? It's so obvious, I did the example! This is just one more point that you aren't concentrating on the things before you.

I don't want to break you, but this issue is obviously about not knowing the program are not knowing what you are doing.

[brudgers]

Is anyone else having trouble with width and length of a rectangle in the Object Info box?

Try this exercise:

A client who does not know anything about VW was describing an outline he wanted manufactured.

He said I should start with a rectangel 200mm wide and 500mm high, so I drew that on VW.

Then he said that he had made a mistake and it should be 500mm wide and 200mm high, so I rotated the rectangle.

He then wanted me to start in the top left corner of this rectangle and make a cutout 50mm wide and 100mm high. I duplicated the first rectangle and, from Object Info, I chose "Width" and changed it to 50 and Height to 100.

We made this item in multiple quantites but it was wrong.

This is because some "smart" person has changed VW so that if a rectangle is rotated then width is length and length is width.

Please, please can someone tell this person to look up the specs on their monitor! It will be x wide and y high as everything else in life is and it doesn't change when it is rotated.

Now VW2010 has followed on with the same quirk.

Why was this item released to manufacturing without the client's review and approval of the design?

This seems more like an issue of your organization's internal quality control process than an issue with Vectorworks.

BTW, why would the client's (lack of) knowledge of Vectorworks be relevant?

Edited October 16, 2009 by brudgers

[WhoCanDo]

DWorks,

the reason why an A4 piece of paper is 8" wide and 11" high in portrait and 11" wide and 8" high in landscape is so everyone can understand it. If I as you to draw a wall 2m wide and 6m high I do not expect to get a 6m high wall laying on it's side.

brudgers,

only an example mate. Our designs don't get approved because clients don't want to wait. If a client did know VW then they would know that when a rectangle is rotated and duplicated then every other dimension supplied would be W = H and H = L. Confused yet?

ccroft,

Changing a rectangle to polygon is a good idea but then why isn't there a polygon tool that draws rectangles?

I think it's a great idea that when a rectangle is drawn or rotated 1 deg to 89 deg (similar in other quadrants) that it has a constant W & L but at 0 deg or 90 deg etc. width is historically and logically across the screen.

Edited October 17, 2009 by WhoCanDo

[Dieter @ DWorks]

I think it's a great idea that when a rectangle is drawn or rotated 1 deg to 80 deg (similar in other quadrants) that it has a constant W & L but at 0 deg or 90 deg etc. width is historically and logically across the screen.

Well, then it's time to change your thinking. Don't think like they used too in the old days. We live today and are much smarter than then. So Think and make sure you control your designs like Brudgers says. If you dont check them, you are a fool, because we are only mere humans and humans tend to make mistakes. Put a rectangle on the ground, place a group of people around it, now ask each of them what's the width is. See? is just how you think width is. VW takes the way so that it's always the same. And you can check this in the oip next to the dots. There are two letters to show what's w and h!

[WhoCanDo]

Thanks DWorks, I do take note of W & H in the oip but when a customer sends me a floor layout with column cutouts along the top and sides I will draw a rectangle and re-shape and move into position along the top (easy). Rotating that rectangle because it is the correct shape for some of the cutouts down the side is easy but when one of those cutouts is different then I am reading H dimensions from the customer drawing and then changing the W in oip. In my position this happens all day long.

Standardization is the way to reduce mistakes since humans make mistakes when something is not typical. What is the height of the ceiling in your office. A fool is a person who doesn't understand & consider others but don't get me wrong, I am not calling you a fool after all you are smart enough to offer your time to help others.

The dictionary says width is a noun:

(n.)The measurement of the extent of something from side to side.

this is based on human nature to stand "up" or sit "down" so if we know which is up and down then side to side is width and top to bottom is height.

When you draw a rectangle on the floor it has width and length so you can confuse the group of people if you ask them to tell you the width but you can't confuse them if you ask them what is the height because drawn on the ground it has no height.

You are getting the idea of this though because of your confusion, and that is what I am getting at. Standards say width on a piece of paper is viewed from where you are sitting. Dimensions on a 2D plan have width and length. As soon as it is seen on a vertical monitor it has width and height so if height is width and width is height then I'm confused like you.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

The dictionary says width is a noun:

(n.)The measurement of the extent of something from side to side.

So vw isn't correct at all, the rectangle should have a width and a height (or lenght) but a width and a width. (a rectangle has 4 sides)

I know what you are trying to point out. It's more natural to call the side that's in the x-direction the width and the other the height when you are in 2D plan view.

You also should consider that when using width and length, the natural is that length is the longest side. So this also can't be used.

You just need to get used to the names used in vw. Even if they don't feel natural. It's just a chosen convention.

The only thing they can do to fix this is not displaying the width and height but displaying other things:

*The base point

*The rotation angle

*The first side

*The second side

But that would confuse more people!

Edited October 17, 2009 by DWorks

[WhoCanDo]

For the last 20yrs since Minicad 4 I have entered width (across) and height (vertical) so mirroring a drawing on paper is too difficult to transpose as I go.

I think ccroft has the most sensible answer - convert the rectangle into a polygon so I guess I will re-write the rectangle script/tool to do this.

Thanks for everyones input and a great solution.

PS. I've just been looking up this game instruction for my wife and I understood the instuctions completely when they were talking about width and height:

http://www.thonky.com/picross/how-to-play-picross/

Edited October 17, 2009 by WhoCanDo

[ccroft]

Just for the record, it was Ride who suggested converting to polygon, and it's a sensible work-around for some users.

That's what the older versions did with a rectangle rotated something other than 90 or 180.

My suggestion is to improve the tool.

In the mean time, if I need to transpose the height and width of a rectangle I avoid the short-cut of rotating and change height and width in OIP. Then rectangles remain rectangles, and height and width remain aligned with the screen. For me it's not something that happens very often.

DWorks said:

"The only thing they can do to fix this is not displaying the width and height but displaying other things:

*The base point

*The rotation angle

*The first side

*The second side"

That's what the rotated rectangle PIO that I used in vWorks 8 and 11 did. It was a line PIO and it got the job done, but the new rotated rect is easier for me.

The main point of the new behavior is that you can have a rectangle on an angle relative to the screen and still edit it's height and width in OIP. A quick glance at the widget in OIP tells what's what. You can also drag a control point and it'll stretch in the same way an un-rotated rectangle does.

You lose both if it's a polygon.

If all your rects are aligned with the screen you might as well abandon rectangle for poly. You can always rotate plan when they're not.

[Kool Aid]

I've probably lost it somehow?

I'm not saying that the improved rectangle wouldn't be at least a tad difficult for those of us who were used to the peculiar behaviour of the old one.

The 90? issue: now, let's assume I'm rotating my rectangle in interactive mode. For some reason, it happens to end up in the said angle (and especially with a rotated plan, it very well might, unintentionally.)

Would I want the width and height change places when the angle changes from 89.99? to 90?? I don't think so!

However, the Rotate command could be re-engineered to accommodate the quite reasonable wish by our square colleagues. I just tested the theory with my old custom rotated rectangle PIO and a custom 90? rotation command. Worked very well! I'm confident that the 20-line command could be made to work with native rectangles as well and fairly confident that NNA could do this, too,

Then we'd all be happy!

EDIT

Well, there you go! With native rectangles it was even easier:

PROCEDURE RotateRect90;

VAR

obHd : HANDLE;

rHeight, rWidth : REAL;

BEGIN

obHd := FSActLayer;

rHeight := HHeight(obHd);

rWidth := HWidth(obHd);

SetHeight(obHd, rWidth);

SetWidth(obHd, rHeight);

END;

RUN(RotateRect90);

Edited October 17, 2009 by Kool Aid

[brudgers]

brudgers,

only an example mate. Our designs don't get approved because clients don't want to wait. If a client did know VW then they would know that when a rectangle is rotated and duplicated then every other dimension supplied would be W = H and H = L. Confused yet?

The behaviour of vectorworks rectangles is irrelevant, unless that's what your actually selling...it sounds like something out of the Phantom Tollbooth.

If you manufacture without your client proofing your work, then you should expect mistakes.

[WhoCanDo]

ccroft,

I'm not quite with you (understanding) but I like your open mindedness.

Kool Aid,

"Square colleagues" that's me. I only draw in 2D and 98% in width and height. It's rare for me to need a rectangle off 0/90?

I like your "out of the box" thinking. Thanks for the script.

brudgers,

I've drawn hundreds of thousands of square meters of floor area and I can't remember more than several (maybe 50m2) of customer complaints because my macros cross reference and double check me. That's the way I wrote them. As I said, it was just an example and I didn't really make the mistake.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll post the macro when I start it and all positive, caring and understanding suggestions are welcome.

To those positive thinkers, keep up the good work. You are all brilliant.

Edited October 18, 2009 by WhoCanDo

[brudgers]

As I said, it was just an example and I didn't really make the mistake.

In that case, the rectangle isn't really a problem either.

Hopefully, you submitted it as a bug and didn't just waste our time with it.

[ccroft]

Hopefully, you submitted it as a bug and didn't just waste our time with it.

But it's not a bug. The tool is behaving as designed.

I don't think it's a waste of time for people to discuss how the tools work and how they might be improved.

Something for the wish-list perhaps.

[WhoCanDo]

brudgers,

you are correct, the rectangle is not a problem for all angles between verticle and horizontal but I don't draw anything other than verticle and horizontal. This may seem a very insignificant problem to anyone else but my collegues and I in Australasia (approx. 20) are monitoring errors daily.

ccroft,

your right, this is not a bug but a useful tool to anyone that wants width and heigth to rotate at 90?. Personally I liked the international standards taught in schools and books which say for clarity and information conveyance that a box on the table, no matter which side it sits on has width (across) length (back) and height (down) and it may have the width rotated until it sites at 90? again.

Kool Aid,

I couldn't get your code to work properly so I am starting with this:

procedure Rectangular_Polygon;

var

x1,y1,x2,y2 : real;

begin

DSelectAll;

GetPt (x1,y1);

GetPtL (x1,y1,x2,y2);

Poly (x1,y1,x2,y1,x2,y2,x1,y2,x1,y1);

end;

run (Rectangular_Polygon);

and I will be using it in addition to the rectangle tool (if I every use the rectangular tool) rather than a replacement.

Maybe VW can add the Polygon Rectangle option to the tool choices.

I know that the rounded rectangle now works like the rectangle and the 4 segment Regular Polygon will work but also is not as good as the original in VW12 and before.

Great to see such positive intentions.

Edited October 19, 2009 by WhoCanDo

[ccroft]

Personally I liked the international standards taught in schools and books which say for clarity and information conveyance that a box on the table, no matter which side it sits on has width (across) length (back) and height (down) and it may have the width rotated until it sites at 90? again.

Well...yeah, but...In my world that box is more likely a drawer in a cabinet. It gets it's height, width and depth when it's built.

If I take it out of the cabinet and lay it on it's side nobody thinks it's width has changed.

Same for doors. A 7ft high door is still 7ft high no matter how you stack it.

It's like that. You give the rectangle it's height when you build it and it retains that no matter how you rotate it or the plan.

This thread is starting to resemble those ones about None Class that turn into lengthy investigations of what None means.

Or what a standard is.... ;-)

Anyway, glad to see you've found the behavior you need. That's what really matters.

[WhoCanDo]

Good on yeah ccroft,

I think is should end here as well unless someone wan't to improve my very basic script.

[WhoCanDo]

Minor mod. to close the polygon.

procedure Rectangular_Polygon;

var

x1,y1,x2,y2 : real;

begin

DSelectAll;

GetPt (x1,y1);

GetPtL (x1,y1,x2,y2);

ClosePoly;

Poly (x1,y1,x2,y1,x2,y2,x1,y2,x1,y1);

end;

run (Rectangular_Polygon);