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How do I insert a door in a curtain wall?


Linicks

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So, after all the fanfare of launching v2010 (& 2009, and 2008), it turns out that "You (still) can't install a door into a curtain wall in VW".

In spite of all the pleas in these forums, numerous listings in the wishlist over several versions now, assurances by Those Who Are In The Know that the wishlist is taken seriously, the tool is unchanged and you can't install a door in a curtain wall - unbelievable.

It reminds me of a decades old Jacques Tati movie, where he was trying to enter a modern glass walled skyscraper to meet the love of his life, but in spite of tearing round and round the building, he just couldn't find the door - the building must have been designed using Vectorworks.

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So, after all the fanfare of launching v2010 (& 2009, and 2008), it turns out that "You (still) can't install a door into a curtain wall in VW".

In spite of all the pleas in these forums, numerous listings in the wishlist over several versions now, assurances by Those Who Are In The Know that the wishlist is taken seriously, the tool is unchanged and you can't install a door in a curtain wall - unbelievable.

It reminds me of a decades old Jacques Tati movie, where he was trying to enter a modern glass walled skyscraper to meet the love of his life, but in spite of tearing round and round the building, he just couldn't find the door - the building must have been designed using Vectorworks.

As a newer VW user, I'm very surprised that this functionality isn't built in. This is another small feature that could be added easily, that would really make VW that much better. I know that they have 90% of the code, they just haven't done it. It's not like its asking for a feature that requires mass amounts of effort and code like the switch to Parasolid. Because it's another piece of "low hanging fruit "they must think that it's not important. Hopefully the decision makers will start to recognize their importance and just start knocking them out. That being said, 2010 is a much better release that 2009 was. It's not like they rocked the world with new and innovative features, and addressed the majority of the long standing requests, but the changes that they have made really make it nicer to use.

I will try the work arounds listed thus far in hopes that we can avoid another tragedy :)

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As a newer VW user, I'm very surprised that this functionality isn't built in. This is another small feature that could be added easily, that would really make VW that much better. I know that they have 90% of the code, they just haven't done it. It's not like its asking for a feature that requires mass amounts of effort and code like the switch to Parasolid.

I don't think they have even 1% of the code. Walls that accept openings (doors & windows) are fundamentally something completely different than curtain walls.

But please tell me that I'm wrong!

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Stupid question by residential design/builder:

Why would one use the "glass wall" tool over simply using the wall tool, creating a 2" deep aluminum wall (or whatever), and inserting windows and doors? I would assume in the average curtain wall there are only a few standardized window/glass sizes, so it wouldn't be hard to mock them up... or am I missing something? Just curious, I don't really do curtain walls: though occasional greenhouses/sunspaces/conservatories might get the same treatment.

Keith

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Keith, a prof of mine always like to say, "There are no stupid questions, except the ones that never get asked". And I agree. That's what the forum is for, so keep on asking!

My answer is that the method you posit would work fine, and in fact might have some advantages over the "Window Wall" tool, most notably in that one can insert doors and windows into it! The purpose of the Window Wall is very specific (obviously) and the implementation could perhaps use some refinement/improvement.

One great thing about Vectroworks in general is that the company actually does listen to its users. So if there is something you would like to see it is often quite effective to post it to the "Wish List" section of this forum. I never expect an immediate response, but if enough users want something it will quite often become reality. It may take a version or two, but remember, the engineers are usually working a couple versions ahead in their planning and programming. They, like many other industries, have to be!

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Stupid question by residential design/builder:

Why would one use the "glass wall" tool over simply using the wall tool, creating a 2" deep aluminum wall (or whatever), and inserting windows and doors? I would assume in the average curtain wall there are only a few standardized window/glass sizes, so it wouldn't be hard to mock them up... or am I missing something? Just curious, I don't really do curtain walls: though occasional greenhouses/sunspaces/conservatories might get the same treatment.

Keith

Storefront and curtainwall are an entirely different beast.

And though doors come in standard sizes, everything else is per the designer.

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KeithW has actually presented one valid method for "curtain wall" modeling in VW.

Another version of this method is to use a Wall Style that is the thickness of the glazing (1/4" to 1")and to insert Mullion objects for verticals and custom symbols/shapes for the horizontals. This is the methods that I used for the Ellicott Heights project. Besides being able to insert doors and vents where I wished, this technique allowed me to use the same Database Worksheet functions to determine the quantities of the wall.

For the OGC AECOO Testbed last year, we (as well as ArchiCAD and Bentley Architecture) were actually REQUIRED to model the curtain wall according to Keith's method, so that EnergyPlus' model data transfer could properly "read" the qualities and quantities of the curtain wall.

The point is, there is more than one means to the same ends, but the means are informed as much by the requirements of the end, as they are shaped by the technology available, or convenience of, the means.

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KeithW has actually presented one valid method for "curtain wall" modeling in VW.

Another version of this method is to use a Wall Style that is the thickness of the glazing (1/4" to 1")and to insert Mullion objects for verticals and custom symbols/shapes for the horizontals. This is the methods that I used for the Ellicott Heights project. Besides being able to insert doors and vents where I wished, this technique allowed me to use the same Database Worksheet functions to determine the quantities of the wall.

For the OGC AECOO Testbed last year, we (as well as ArchiCAD and Bentley Architecture) were actually REQUIRED to model the curtain wall according to Keith's method, so that EnergyPlus' model data transfer could properly "read" the qualities and quantities of the curtain wall.

The point is, there is more than one means to the same ends, but the means are informed as much by the requirements of the end, as they are shaped by the technology available, or convenience of, the means.

But where's the BIM?

The sad fact that even A or B cannot create curtain walls in a sensible BIM-way is not an excuse.

In fact, it is an opportunity! Now, code for this would have 90% of the code needed for insulated precast sandwich elements and vice versa?

Oh, shucks! I forgot the pathetic IFC, void of complex lexical/semantic structures??

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Stupid question by residential design/builder:

Keith,

Thanks for straightening me, and the thousands of others out there that design and build their own projects up. And to think that one of us had the nerve to add a glass wall to one of their designs. It's almost incompressible. On behalf of all of us, I would like to apologize for asking a question, and even thinking about adding a curtain/glass wall to a house.

Sincerely,

The Unimportant

Edited by Linicks
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As a newer VW user, I'm very surprised that this functionality isn't built in. This is another small feature that could be added easily, that would really make VW that much better. I know that they have 90% of the code, they just haven't done it. It's not like its asking for a feature that requires mass amounts of effort and code like the switch to Parasolid.

I don't think they have even 1% of the code. Walls that accept openings (doors & windows) are fundamentally something completely different than curtain walls.

But please tell me that I'm wrong!

Ok, your wrong! :) LOL

I know that we will look at this from different perspectives, and already know that we will have to agree to disagree.

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One great thing about Vectroworks in general is that the company actually does listen to its users. So if there is something you would like to see it is often quite effective to post it to the "Wish List" section of this forum. I never expect an immediate response, but if enough users want something it will quite often become reality. It may take a version or two, but remember, the engineers are usually working a couple versions ahead in their planning and programming. They, like many other industries, have to be!

I will allocate some time to post my requests on the "Wish List" thread, and hopefully some of them will come to fruition.

Thanks!

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KeithW has actually presented one valid method for "curtain wall" modeling in VW.

Another version of this method is to use a Wall Style that is the thickness of the glazing (1/4" to 1")and to insert Mullion objects for verticals and custom symbols/shapes for the horizontals. This is the methods that I used for the Ellicott Heights project. Besides being able to insert doors and vents where I wished, this technique allowed me to use the same Database Worksheet functions to determine the quantities of the wall.

For the OGC AECOO Testbed last year, we (as well as ArchiCAD and Bentley Architecture) were actually REQUIRED to model the curtain wall according to Keith's method, so that EnergyPlus' model data transfer could properly "read" the qualities and quantities of the curtain wall.

The point is, there is more than one means to the same ends, but the means are informed as much by the requirements of the end, as they are shaped by the technology available, or convenience of, the means.

It sounds like these are a couple of the best methods of achieving my goal in the current version of VW. I will give them a try.

Many Thanks!

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Ok, your wrong! :) LOL

I know that we will look at this from different perspectives, and already know that we will have to agree to disagree.

I am indeed. Walking the dog this afternoon, I realised that a wall behaviour could quite easily (?) be added to a designated part of Curtain Wall object. After all, there are already several specific behavioural components in PIOs.

However, there are also issues related to user interface and (lack of dynamic) data structures that are unsatisfactory in this respect. Take even a 20-storey high curtain wall?

My perspective here and now is that of a programmer, but when I am a user, I would desperately need the ability to insert at least (non-standard sized) doors into curtain walls ? which in my world are not necessarily glazed at all and seldom only glazed.

(Doors, in my world, can be made to any size.)

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