VW 2010 Stairs

[Jim Smith]

Other than a passing note on the Stair PIO, I have not seen any examples, or info on How the Stair PIO has changed. Anyone have abt more info than what is seen in the Video?

[mike m oz]

There is a new Stair object in Vw 2010 Architect in addition to the Vw 2009 stair object which is now called Custom Stair.

The new Stair object can be 2D or 2D/3D and has a range of options and customisation as shown in the dialog box images below. Parameter settings and even whole stairs can be saved for re-use.

[islandmon]

Very elegant ... expertly conceived.

[Kool Aid]

Very inelegant. They rely on Dialogs.

Nevertheless: looking forward to German Technology!

(My wife lived, as a child, a couple of years in New York as her father was a Visiting Fellow at Columbia University. This was in the early 1960s: well before the mothers of some Board Members were born. )

She and her schoolmates had, as I understand, huge arguments about whether the Russians or the Americans had better Jewish professors.

[billtheia]

The new stair tool is better in some ways, worse in others.

See:

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=129230#Post129230

[Kool Aid]

Fancy that!

It is all about what one needs to do and resolve. My guess is that McMacsiontects and other draughtsmen & -women are better off with the American Pseudo-Gothic features of the old stair tool.

I had no use for it.

[Jim Smith]

This looks like a big improvement; I wonder about a couple of things:

- Can a typical concrete & metal pan stair on steel stringers be constructed with the PIO?

- Has the problem with winders not showing up properly between the second from top & the top tread been resolved?

- Have the stray lines from the Direction Arrow on winders been fixed?

- While the graphics are improved in the Dialogue Box, what do the graphics look like when the Stair PIO is cut in a section? Specifically, are stray vertical lines still produced?

This PIO has been my pet peeve since, well, forever, I would really like to know more about this PIO's improvements before making the switch as we will have to replace all of our hardware in the office to move to VW2010.

[Jim Smith]

billtheia,

I did not see this post, thanks!

I guess since the software has not really improved I'll wait until 2011 or 12 to upgrade.

[billtheia]

Jim, you're welcome. I'm not sure I'd say that 2010 isn't "improved," though. I'm not waiting.

[Jershaun]

I agree with Jim about 2010 not really improved.

About this stair tool. It seems to have a couple more features but the main feature is missing. If one has a stairwell going, for example, 4 floors, one should be able to use the stair tool once and vw should be able to reflect it on all floor simultaneously. So if the staircase ever has to change (most likely it would), one should be able to edit it once and not 4 times.

The point of BIM is not only to have a model and then generate one's documents from the model but also to avoid omissions and mistakes. If one revises a window in plan it should reflect in the elevation and section documents automatically thus avoiding the drafter forgetting to update a sheet. This should also be true for staircases. By revising the stair once and vw taking care of the rest, it avoids the stair showing differently on one floor from the others.

Hope this makes sense.

[mike m oz]

Shaun if the stair is a replicate over four storeys then all you do is save it as a symbol via the Save as Symbol button in the bottom LH corner of the General tab in the Settings dialog box. Then it can be edited once to change all instances.

The same can be done manually with the Custom Stair and Simple Stair objects.

[Jershaun]

ok mike. will take a look at it later

[billtheia]

Mike, using a symbols seems like a good idea. How do you recommend handling the different views from each floor (showing cut line on lower floors and whole stair on top floor?)

[brudgers]

Mike, using a symbols seems like a good idea. How do you recommend handling the different views from each floor (showing cut line on lower floors and whole stair on top floor?)

Unless you make classes for spatial divisions, I don't see how you can do it...since symbols cannot contain objects on multiple layers.

[Jershaun]

I haven't received my copy of 2010 so I haven't tested this tool out.

billtheia and brudgers have a point. Stairs in a multiple storey building have 3 different 2D representations-one for ground floor, one for top/last floor and one for intermediate floors. Also if I made a symbol as you suggest mike, won't that symbol have 3D data from ground to top floor and if I place that symbol on each floor, won't I get multiple levels of stairs on one floor thus one ends up getting overlapping stairs in the overall model? I don't get this stair tool-just add a radio button for multiple floors or something.

Also can one use one's own custom post eg. a symbol?

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Shaun,

I must disagree strongly with assertion about the representation of a stair in a BIM. Your proposal is in no way "standard" to the current data model for BIM in either IFC or BIM applications. I think difference in conception is, in some ways, harmful to the public's understanding of what BIM is, or isn't, and what applications are capable BIM tools, or not.

Today, the generally accepted BIM specifications for building model representation include that a building is logically divided into storey/level/floor "containers". All elements are located in, or directly related to, that container. The data structure of IFC and many BIM applications rely on this container structure to locate and analyze the geometry and data of analogous elements. While their are legitimate concerns about elements/objects/systems that cross, or serve, multiple storeys simultaneously, there are also accepted conventions, at least in IFC specifications for the depiction of those instances.

Stairs are NOT always so simple to be connected and similar from floor-to-floor, even in a single stairwell. Indeed, I'm sure Orso can come up with a few examples, as well as my own from the Ellicott Heights project.

[Kool Aid]

Here I must agree with Jeffrey! (Odd, indeed.)

Now, the (i) 2D-representation of a stair can (and should) be independent from (ii) 3D and especially (iii) the ?BIM?.

Item (ii) is pretty much universal. Item (i) is very much country-dependent. Item (iii) is both country and client-dependent.

All the well-meaning proposals here are applicable only to trivial cases. The really complex cases would require very advanced data structures and even ?artificial intelligence?; at least Rules. Trust me.

[brudgers]

The stair object may have needed replacement, but the ability of objects to automatically represent themselves within the building context is an important feature of the tools architects use to create their data for BIM. IFC on the other hand is not an application, and I doubt anyone wants to use an application wholly limited to the specification.

While there are many buildings that do not have simplified stairs that can easily be modeled using floor to floor heights, that does not mean that simplifying stairs for all the others is a waste of time.

The expectation that the new stair object would inherit the major functional features of the classic stair was not an unreasonable expectation.

[Kool Aid]

May be. You must be one of the many people who cannot use more than one screwdriver, regardless. In fact, you are likely to prefer the so-called Russian screwdriver, also known as the hammer: the problem of choice for those who only know nails.

[Pat Stanford]

The expectation that the new stair object would inherit the major functional features of the classic stair was not an unreasonable expectation.

The expectation might not be unreasonable, but the reality is different.

Nothing has been taken away. The VW2010 Custom Stair tool is the same (with some bug fixes) as the VW2009 Stair tool.

The VW2010 Stair tool was not developed from the historical code base. It is a completely different product that was developed for a specific market. It was developed by an outside developer, not NNA.

Since it was an outside product, there was nothing to "inherit". Enough requests may get the functionality into future versions, but as far as I know, the ability to work across layers has never been part of the specification of the tool/object.

[brudgers]

The reality which you describe is that of the developer.

But the user's reality may be quite different.

They were expecting an improved stair tool, not a new stair tool.

In the long run, the new stair may prove to be better for them, but the reality is that this remains to be determined.

In the short run, the users may have real dissappointments due to ufullfilled expectations and real logistical headaches due to the existence of multiple stair object types.

As an aside, being able to inherit vectorworks object types from existing vectorworks objects could be a real boon to development...and potentially avoid this sort of issue in a really cool way.

Edited September 24, 2009 by brudgers

[Jershaun]

Technology is always changing so too will BIM or the definition thereoff. Instead of NNA towing the line, they should be head of the line and come out with innovative ideas of tackling a problem eg. the stair issue. Some the users ask for it the way we want it to behave (head of the line) but there's other users that merely want to tow the line. This also is what is frustrating, especially when NNA takes the easy way out and just meets the minimum in terms of BIM (iow, towing the line).

The old stair tool wasn't perfect and it needed to be improved. The new stair seems very good but is lacking just a couple of features. So instead of defending the new stair, NNA should accept its shortcomings and try to enhance it.

If something doesn't work in vw, NNA just abandons it eg. the "hardware acceleration" feature. Now they've done it with the stair tool (they've used someone else). If they can't make it work, they give up.

Coming back to the new stair tool, even in a 2 floor building I don't see how this works (please understand I don't have 2010 yet), won't one have 3 stairs/symbols to represent one staircase-one for the ground floor, one for the first/top floor and one for the 3D linking them? So everytime the staircase changes, one has to fix 3 symbols?

These are just my opinions so don't flame me please.

Thanks,

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Coming back to the new stair tool, even in a 2 floor building I don't see how this works (please understand I don't have 2010 yet), won't one have 3 stairs/symbols to represent one staircase-one for the ground floor, one for the first/top floor and one for the 3D linking them? So everytime the staircase changes, one has to fix 3 symbols?

These are just my opinions so don't flame me please.

Thanks,

Well, that's wrong. You'll need 4 stair symbols!

As long as I can remember, we always had that stair pio in our version because our local dealer added it from ComputerWorks (who made that). And I must say that it works really wel. And when I need to change a stair, I change it on floor A, then copy and past it on floor B and just change one option to show it full or half depending on the floor. So you don't need to change the two each time. Just use it and see that it is really easy!

[Kool Aid]

Using symbols means, I believe, that you won't be able to generate valid IFC-files.

In any real BIM, all objects must have unique and persistent IDs (UUIDs).

I can't see how that could be achieved with symbols.

[Jershaun]

Hi DWorks

I know it will be easy-thats not the point. Working in large projects, one should be able to edit one(1) stair one(1) time. One has no time to remember how many other things one(1) stair affects.

What about my earlier question, can you answer it. Can one use one's own custom post eg. a symbol?