VW2008 and Snow Leopard

[brudgers]

Arstechnica's review of Snow Leopard gives some insight into some of the roadmap issues facing NNA.

Among them: the quicktime API and the clang/llvm development environment.

[ossccar]

Worked all day on macbook pro/snow leopard/VW2008. No problems.

[Sky]

That's great news.

I'm thinking about purchasing the upgrade to VW2009 since it includes a free upgrade to VW2010 when it is released. I probably won't install it and just wait until VW2010 to do an actual upgrade.

I ordered Snow Leopard this week. Looking forward to trying it out.

[IanH]

I'm thinking about purchasing the upgrade to VW2009 since it includes a free upgrade to VW2010 when it is released.

Are you sure about 2009 upgrade having free upgrade to 2010? Late purchase copies of 2009 do but upgrades? It certainly does not fit with the pricing structure. A double step upgrade is approx the same as two single step upgrades. It would certainly pi55 off many 2009 users if the double price upgrade was effectively halved and I can't see why NNA would half their upgrade costs at the expense of loyal users.

[Sky]

I think it has to do with their 30-day return policy.

If I buy 2009 and within 30 days they come out with 2010, I could just pay the single upgrade price to 2010 and then return 2009. So they do this rather than deal with all the headaches and returns. You can't promise a 30 day money back guaranty and then change the terms of it after the purchase.

I think it is just a weird situation when 2010 is going to come out in less than 30 days. And since they have this offer, it is safe to say that 2010 is coming out in less than 30 days.

[IanH]

I think it has to do with their 30-day return policy.

If I buy 2009 and within 30 days they come out with 2010, I could just pay the single upgrade price to 2010 and then return 2009. So they do this rather than deal with all the headaches and returns. You can't promise a 30 day money back guaranty and then change the terms of it after the purchase.

Is this wishful thinking or fact?

If you buy 2009 then change your mind and upgrade to 2010 instead, the cost of the upgrade to 2010 will be nearly double that of the single 2009 upgrade as its a two version upgrade.

You are not buying an upgrade to the latest version, you are buying either a 2008 to 2009 upgrade or a 2008 to 2010 upgrade, the latter being a very slight saving over a 2008 to 2009 upgrade plus the 2009 to 2010 upgrade, both options being nearly twice the price of a 2008 to 2009 upgrade. Changing your mind under the 30day offer may save you money, but probably only about 20 or so bucks over the 2008 to 2010 price rather than getting it at the 2008 to 2009 price.

I'm a UK reseller and have not been told about the 'discount' - but then again, it is the UK plus us resellers don't get told anything unless we ask.

[FRED JOHNSON]

I just purchased 2009 VWA+RW as an upgrade from VWA 8.5. At the time I worked out the upgrade price with NNA I was told I would receive a FREE upgrade to 2010 VWA. I have the offer sheet somewhere and would expect NNA to honor this offer.

[bc]

Similar for me a year ago. I upgraded to 2008 (from 12.5) and they issued me a FREE upgrade to 2009. They even promoted it via email.

Edited September 5, 2009 by bc

[IanH]

Wow.

I can see the point with pre 10 versions, ie 8.5, where the cost of upgrade is the same no matter what version you have so it would be much the same as buying 2009 new outright and getting the upgrade to 2010. But, from the NNA perspective, this does not make sense for a single version upgrade.

In the UK, the rrp ex vat prices for 2009 Architect and upgrades are:

2009 ?1376 (new outright purchase)

2008 ?335 (upgrade)

12 ?598 (upgrade)

10/11 ?683 (upgrade)

Pre 10 ?783 (upgrade)

So, within this 30 day window you would have effectively got a ?598 upgrade for ?335, if this same promotion applies to the UK. I need to check on Monday.

[bc]

Well we could be comparing distributor apples to oranges. And I must admit my memory may not be serving as well as it used to because now I remember more clearly telephone promotion. They called me.

The pitch was more along the lines of, "If you upgrade to 2008 now (only a month before 2009 release) we will issue you 2009 later."

In effect, the offer seems to me to be, "Upgrade to 2009 early and we'll throw in 2008." I don't know if me still being on 12.5 played a role.

If someone can jar my memory otherwise I will gladly eat humble pie. After all, I thought that a multi-version upgrade costs the same as a single step upgrade so what the heck do I know?

I just now called NNA sales and was not connected after 20 min of recorded promotion. Must be the weekend skeleton crew. NNA online store only upgrades from 2008 to 2009.

When I bought my new laptop last June (running 10.5.7) APPLE sold me a copy of Snow Leopard for 10 dollars since it was so close to that release.

[brudgers]

I think I recall a double upgrade offer for 2009.

It makes sense because it encourages people to upgrade and stick with Vectorworks.

Once we're talking full retail price, those looking to upgrade from 2008 are significantly more likely to switch software.

Because the yearly cycle is so new, 2010 is the first time NNA has had a "2nd year" upgrade.

[Sky]

I think IanH finally believes me. So stop insinuating how ignorant I am. What I said is what they told me. Nuff said.

[brudgers]

Huh?

[Sky]

Sorry, the response was meant for IanH, not you Brudgers. He first asked me if I was sure about the upgrade offer. After I explained that offer, he asked me if that was wishful thinking or if it was fact. He then went on and on about how the return situation wouldn't work and how it doesn't make sense for the company to do that.

*roll eyes*

The way it would work is that you upgrade to VW2009. Then you upgrade to VW2010 when it comes out and return VW2009 before the 30 days are up. You have effectively only paid for a single upgrade. That is why they do this offer - to avoid the complaints, returns and headache.

[brudgers]

Ah.

I've found "Oh, it all makes sense now!" a helpful phrase in similar situations.

Edited September 7, 2009 by brudgers

[bc]

The way it would work is that you upgrade to VW2009. Then you upgrade to VW2010 when it comes out and return VW2009 before the 30 days are up. You have effectively only paid for a single upgrade. That is why they do this offer - to avoid the complaints, returns and headache.

Back to my promotion (2008-2009), I never had to return 2008. And as it turns out I never installed it either.

[Sky]

Exactly. I don't plan to install 2009 either. LOL

[Bill at GFC]

How is everyone doing with Vectorworks 2008 and Snow Leopard installed?

So far no ones reported any issues.

Lets here some more reports!

Think how much money not upgrading to 2009 or 2010 will save!

[Kool Aid]

The way it would work is that you upgrade to VW2009. Then you upgrade to VW2010 when it comes out and return VW2009 before the 30 days are up. You have effectively only paid for a single upgrade. That is why they do this offer - to avoid the complaints, returns and headache.

Back to my promotion (2008-2009), I never had to return 2008. And as it turns out I never installed it either.

Great going: think of all the money you've wasted or not earned by not taking advantage of new functionality.

Anyway: the VW licence seems to allow the licencee to keep all the versions he, she or the Corporation has purchased and not transferred or otherwise relinquished. I'm not a lawyer, but anything else would be unacceptable.

[IanH]

I think IanH finally believes me. So stop insinuating how ignorant I am. What I said is what they told me. Nuff said.

I have to apologies that you feel that I have insulted you. That was not the intention. I simply needed to clarify issues and, with due respect, your explanation on how it all worked did not make sense, ie 30 day period and having to return the old product, plus, it did not fit with the VW pricing structure as it opens up an anomaly where by for a 30 day period, every 23 months, the upgrade path could be halved in cost.

I have now clarified this all with the UK distributors and this upgrade offer is available in a number of circumstances, but not all. It would appear to cover all purchases except addons and educational versions. An addon is where you add on a product, such as designer on to a architect package, or adding renderworks on to a standard product. These are not covered. But new versions and upgrades are certainly covered. And there is no need to return any previous version - it is simply a serial number after all, so license permitting, you can have both versions installed at the same time.

Please accept my apologies again and appreciate that as a reseller who had not been informed of this offer and knowing how it does not fit with the pricing structure I had to question the details of this offer. It was questioning the motives of NNA rather than your integrity.

[Sky]

I'm glad we are all on the same page! I feel much better now.

I just wanted to clarify because there seems to be confusion about what I said (not just from you). The reason they allow the free upgrade within 30 days is to AVOID the headache of dealing with complaints and returns. Thus, there was never any need to return the interim upgrade.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Sky

[Sky]

Kool Aid, please keep your snide judgmental comments to yourself. What a terrible attitude to think you know what's best for me or my business.

The reason I didn't upgrade last year was because I was very busy and in the middle of projects. I really didn't feel that I had the time to move all my projects into a new version of VectorWorks and to learn the new features.

While I am extremely grateful that I still have projects now, they aren't as large or as numerous. This is a good time to invest in a new version and learn all the the features.

There are quite a few new projects coming up soon (thankfully the economy is recovering - keeping my fingers crossed).

Maybe this isn't a good enough reason for you or your business, but it was for mine.

[Kool Aid]

Kool Aid, please keep your snide judgmental comments to yourself. What a terrible attitude to think you know what's best for me or my business.

Was I talking to you? Well, whatever. For my snide, judgmental comments I usually get paid something like 150 U.S. pesos per hour. As an Architect, I advice corporations, Government bodies and educational institutes on how to use their money; as an IT-consultant, other architects, planners etc. It is my business to know what is best for other businesses.

Notwithstanding, I acknowledge that I do not really understand one-person operations providing services to private individuals. I don't mind long hours and accept non-billable hours, but there's a limit known as 24/7/52.

In any case, I'm the last person to recommend upgrading software in on-going jobs; quite the contrary. The comment about licencing conditions was intended to somehow relay that, but obviously failed. The quiet periods between jobs, however, are ideal for learning and implementing improved functionality of new versions.

The wording came from a recent message extolling the savings made from not upgrading. Since I do not know what you do for a living, I can't say whether the new versions are of (financial) value to you or not.

I'll take the risk of being totally professional and honest:

In recent VW versions there have been few compelling reasons to upgrade. The annual cycle does not appear to bring significant benefits for users.

However, in two years the benefits are more pronounced. Skipping two upgrades makes the learning curve a lot steeper ? and the same applies to the cost.

In a cash flow business you will want to spread the investment costs thinly over a period. At least your accountant will.

[Bill at GFC]

What I have or have not earned is irrelevant since I use Vectorworks at a means to solve in house design and production challenges.

Again lets here some stories on "VW2008 and Snow Leopard", since that is what this post was started for.

[bc]

Sky,

I believe Petri's comment was directed at me although I use 2009 so I am not sure about the functionality comment but I do know he gets pissy despite his occasionally useful comments.