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Revit over VW


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Just had a CAD rep trying to sell us Revit for ?4,500 [not sure if that came with autoCAD or not be would be useful to know]. Anyway he could not understand why I would stick with VW as it is not BIM software, I claimed VW was BIM but he still insisted it was not and lagging behind here in the UK. Also why would I pay ?4,500 for Revit plus the cost of changing and training when I have VW which costs ?1,500.

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One can argue that Vectorworks is a "BIM tool" but that doesn't mean VW is a competitor to Revit and ArchiCAD. Revit and ArchiCAD are, first and foremost, dedicated building modellers. Whether they're great at this or not is neither here nor there. The point is they're dedicated building modellers and they need to ship with a building modelling environment that works in order to be successful.

Vectorworks is not a competitor in this sense. It's not a good building modeller (let alone a dedicated one). It's not good at "desktop BIM." It doesn't ship with a building modelling environment that you can rely on. It doesn't need to, because there are other ways to model. But freeform modelling is not building modelling.

You can't take a CAD app with admittedly brilliant 2D presentation and 3D freeform modelling capabilities, slap on IFC compatibility and call it a competitor to Revit and ArchiCAD. You can call it a "BIM tool" if you want, fine, but that's just sticking one's head in the sand if you ask me.

Interoperability?"big BIM"?is hugely important, yes, but I think NNA have made a mistake in thinking IFC compatibility will being them credibility as a competitor to ArchiCAD and Revit in the BIM realm.

What will really provide VW credibility on this front is interoperability?big BIM?(or even just a decent proprietary server/client workgroup environment) and building modelling (desktop BIM). It's just a shame I think that they haven't had the resources (or possibly the foresight) to bring VW's building modelling capabilities up to scratch before now. For two reasons: one, I think decent building modelling capabilities would actually bring VW more credibility as a BIM app than IFC compatibility and, two, we could be getting on with up-skilling and working in 3D while the industry bottoms out the issues of interoperability.

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Yes yes, VW is much cheaper, of course. But that doesn't undercut my argument, it simply reinforces it.

Maybe in order to compete as a credible building modeller VW needs to become more expensive? Or maybe it's aimed at a different market and will never compete as a building modeller with ArchiCAD and Revit (in which case Michael's Revit salesperson is correct in claiming VW is not BIM software in the same way as Revit or ArchiCAD are).

Or maybe the holy grail. Maybe VW can eventually compete as a building modeller with Revit and ArchiCAD without increasing greatly in price.

The point, however, is that it doesn't compete now.

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C,

The sales person is correct in that Vectorworks isn't BIM software in the same way as Revit, etc. But that doesn't mean it's not BIM software.

BIM is a process not an application. While I don't think that general modeling tools are ever going to be the prevailing approach to BIM, that doesn't mean that they cannot be used for BIMing within their limitations. In other words, I think NNA's white paper makes some legitimate points.

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Christiaan,

While I can't be as eloquent as Petri, I can say stop being such a thick-headed numbskull.

Being you spend as much time as you do on the ArchiCAD forum, why are you still poking around here? Is it to "poison the pond"? Is it to get a rise out of me and Robert Anderson?

Until you understand what BIM really is, until you understand what ALL our competitors are truly capable of, or not, until you even understand the full capabilities of VW, then I suggest you "push off" when someone has a BIM question.

Your bias is tiring. Your ignorance is annoying, at least, and reckless, at worst. You have obviously become so enamored by another's marketing spin, that your mind is off to "greener pastures" will your butt is sitting in front of a reality you really don't know the true depths or nuances of, or show any appreciation towards. I hate to think your personal relationships work the same way.

Instead of spinning that broken record, try tuning out for a while and let the rest of us get something useful and positive accomplished.

Until you can "put up" and show everyone a high level of expertise in using VW as a 2D, 3D and BIM tool (regardless of the shortcomings YOU think it has), I suggest you remain quiet and learn, instead of blathering on, stinking the place up with your negativity and ignorance, and driving everyone else off. You make for one of those neighbors no one wants to have next door in their community.

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One can argue that Vectorworks is a "BIM tool" but that doesn't mean VW is a competitor to Revit and ArchiCAD. Revit and ArchiCAD are, first and foremost, dedicated building modellers. Whether they're great at this or not is neither here nor there. The point is they're dedicated building modellers and they need to ship with a building modelling environment that works in order to be successful.

Vectorworks is not a competitor in this sense. It's not a good building modeller (let alone a dedicated one). It's not good at "desktop BIM." It doesn't ship with a building modelling environment that you can rely on. It doesn't need to, because there are other ways to model. But freeform modelling is not building modelling.

You can't take a CAD app with admittedly brilliant 2D presentation and 3D freeform modelling capabilities, slap on IFC compatibility and call it a competitor to Revit and ArchiCAD. You can call it a "BIM tool" if you want, fine, but that's just sticking one's head in the sand if you ask me.

There are many BIM applications out there that have different capabilities and directions/paradigms for giving users tools to engage in the BIM process. As I tireless tried to explain and rebut your previous tirades, VW IS a perfectly legitimate, useful BIM tool. In the right, capable hands it can produce drawings, models, AND data necessary for the BIM methodology.

Interoperability?"big BIM"?is hugely important, yes, but I think NNA have made a mistake in thinking IFC compatibility will being them credibility as a competitor to ArchiCAD and Revit in the BIM realm.

Again your ignorance shines through. The primary component of BIM is interoperability, sharing geometry and data with other members of the team, geometry and data that may be parsed according to the needs of the particular end user. IFC is the internationally established and accepted interoperability file format. Why? because it is an open standard, vendor-neutral, and extensible. Every year vendors are pressured to supporting this file format through the efforts of the public and quasi-public forums, organizations, and workshops. The workshops are established as laboratories for vendors to improve, or initialize IFC export/import support. All of our competitors subscribe to providing IFC support, some more than others. Your current infatuation has been working on this support longer than anyone, with very good results. However, even they have been eclipsed by our other competitors in capability and quality. This means that IFC has been taken seriously and will continue to grow and improve, over time.

What will really provide VW credibility on this front is interoperability?big BIM?(or even just a decent proprietary server/client workgroup environment) and building modelling (desktop BIM). It's just a shame I think that they haven't had the resources (or possibly the foresight) to bring VW's building modelling capabilities up to scratch before now. For two reasons: one, I think decent building modelling capabilities would actually bring VW more credibility as a BIM app than IFC compatibility and, two, we could be getting on with up-skilling and working in 3D while the industry bottoms out the issues of interoperability.

I believe the problem lies in YOUR lack of skills, or knowledge, of what you can do with VW as a BIM tool. Instead of admitting your need for more training and knowledge of the tools at hand, you take the cheap, easy route of blaming the tools.

If you have doubts, I would look into the work that "Mr. Gog" has done, or "panthony" do, just to name a couple. There have been many examples expressed on this board that are highly laudable. They are perfect examples of users who chose to push VW to what it CAN do, instead of complaining about what THEY can't do.

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I can understand you're passionate Jeffrey but, really, all I was doing was responding to Michael. Can we keep it civil? I'm actually a nice guy and I'm sure you are too. Simply having a strong opinion doesn't make one a broken record.

You have obviously become so enamored by another's marketing spin

This is precisely what I didn't do. The only marketing spin I got side-tracked by was NNA's.

What I did is downloaded ArchiCAD and learnt the bones of it over a weekend. It was this experience that made me realise what we were missing out on with regard to the building modelling front. And being that we like Vectorworks and have a lot of time invested in it we'd like to see it improved and compete with ArchiCAD.

Again your ignorance shines through. The primary component of BIM is interoperability, sharing geometry and data with other members of the team, geometry and data that may be parsed according to the needs of the particular end user.

Okay, now that is the most concrete and interesting thing you've said to me. It's clear now who's to blame for letting VW building modelling capabilities lag under the misguided view that building modelling and interoperability are not equal partners. What's the point of interoperability if you can't produce the model in the first place? If this is truly the position of NNA then, for once, I'm also very clear about the medium term future of VW and what we should be doing.

I believe the problem lies in YOUR lack of skills, or knowledge, of what you can do with VW as a BIM tool. Instead of admitting your need for more training and knowledge of the tools at hand, you take the cheap, easy route of blaming the tools.

Ah, indeed, blame the customer. As I've pointed out, if I was a one man band, using VW as a building modeller would be a simple (if aggravating) matter, as I'm very aware of its building modelling shortcomings. In fact I have used VW in this way on a small project and continue to use many 3D and BIM aspects of VW (up to point) on every project. The problem, of course, is when you need to work in teams. There's just no way I'm going to encourage the use of VW BIM in our office and then expect all our users to learn all the stupid little problems, workarounds and nuisances that that involves. Not in the least because it would be slower than our 2D workflow and we'd lose money.

Edited by Christiaan
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Not again...SO tired of this.

BIM or not, isn't really the point (for me.) The question should be, does the tool make you money and does it materially improve your design and documentation process - does the tool justify it's cost.

VW has served me pretty well since I started with it almost two years ago. I'm a sole proprietor and VW has allowed me to do 3d building modeling from the beginning of design and then leverage the model for the production of CDs.

Do I wish that some of the tools were better? Yes.

Do I think that it's worth what I paid for it? Absolutely.

I considered Revit and ArchiCAD when I switched from ACAD and VW just seemed to have better bang for the buck. I couldn't justify the additional cost of Revit and ArchiCAD because I didn't think that they would make me any more efficient (read profitable.)

So, if Revit, or ArchiCAD, or any other CAD application does something that you NEED - something that justifies it's expense, buy it. If VW's tool set suits your business, buy IT.

Then, GET BACK TO WORK.

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The question should be, does the tool make you money and does it materially improve your design and documentation process - does the tool justify it's cost.

Fine, but why stop there?

There seems to be two schools of thought on this. One is the STFU crowd who think the market process of buying or not buying and producers responding in turn is the only valid process in developing a product. The other school of thought realises that this is not based on reality, because producers and consumers can actually talk to each other and don't have to buy and produce in a vacuum of silence.

The question for us, then, carries on to ask can the tool we use be changed to improve your above points?

Working in 3D allows the designer to spend more time designing and less time drafting. Based on our experience producing one's information from a model using a mature building modeller is about three times faster than 2D and it lowers risk to the architect and builder (I've seen figures of between 10-30% reduction bandied about).

So the answer for us is clear.

So, if Revit, or ArchiCAD, or any other CAD application does something that you NEED - something that justifies it's expense, buy it. If VW's tool set suits your business, buy IT.

We'd rather stick with VW and see it improved in certain areas. Sorry if that doesn't conform to some sense of free market purism.

VW has served me pretty well since I started with it almost two years ago. I'm a sole proprietor and VW has allowed me to do 3d building modeling from the beginning of design and then leverage the model for the production of CDs.

Indeed, from what I can tell, most people using VW to produce construction information from 3D are sole practitioners. But even, then, as you say, you're "leveraging" it rather than full out BIMing it.

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Very nice work. Another sole practitioner perhaps?

You've given me an idea Jeffrey. As I find time I will replicate the 2D production information of a project at work in parametric 3D VW and 3D ArchiCAD and I'll endeavour to take screenshots and screencasts of the things I take issue with.

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Christiaan,

Quit ranting and do what you are supposed to do, file bugs with problems you see with existing tools/command/features. This is not Tech Support, nor a Bug Tracking site. That is what the links on the right in the "VW Community Links" box are for.

When you don't know how something works, ask a sincere simple question, don't immediately indict and be willing to accept the answer.

When you want to see a future improvement or feature, then put it on the Wishlist Forum and keep it simple without turning it into the Ninety-Five Theses and move on.

And comparing us directly to an ArchiCAD workflow or feature isn't going to get you anywhere, either. You make an erroneous assumption that we don't know how ArchiCAD (or any of our other competitors) works. You erroneously assume that we don't have plans to do something about it, in some cases. And like most, you erroneously assume that everything you think is wrong is very easy to fix.

The problem with much of your ranting is that your assertions about what we do at NNA, or not, are entirely assumptions. These are often insulting to our staff who work very hard at trying to provide a good product for users around the world.

Yon don't need to annoy me, or our other users, with your "CADD/BIM shootout". Quit crusading like we are the 16th Century Roman Catholic Church and you are Martin Luther. It would be an insult to him, and a waste of bandwidth and patience for other community members.

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Until you can "put up" and show everyone a high level of expertise in using VW as a 2D, 3D and BIM tool (regardless of the shortcomings YOU think it has), I suggest you remain quiet and learn

Yon don't need to annoy me, or our other users, with your "CADD/BIM shootout".

Seems I'm not the one blathering. I'm not surprised you don't really want to see me put up.

I'm a customer Jeffery, not your debugging team. You've dropped the ball on building modelling and now you've resorted to bullying customers who call you out on it.

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Christiaan,

Seems to me you have an insatiable need to be heard

Earlier I asked

Really simple questions

What is the cost of Revit?

What is the cost of Archicad?

What is the cost of Vectorworks?

In the UK will do

[/Quote]

You replied and the end of your short rant with regard to VW was

The point, however, is that it doesn't compete now

[/Quote]

But you did not answer the question!!

So I asked again

But as I asked - what are the actual costs?

[/Quote]

To which you linked back to this thread

But the answer is not there

Again

What does VW cost?

What does Revit cost?

What does ArchiCAD cost?

This is the third time now I have asked you

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christiaan does not seem to be hostile or trollish, just passionate and frustrated.

christiaan, it is good to be passionate. i also have had my moments. i had to realize that i need to reel myself in at times because i would just burn people out.

don't go away and don't stop thinking. it is what it is.

maybe we can just "reboot" this topic?

kind of like a rewind to life.

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I think what you are missing Christiaan, is most everybody is tired of your endless complaining and couldn't care less about your findings.

Well I see I've been tarred with the fatal "complainer" brush (credit to Jeffrey on that one). Try quoting me from this thread, for instance, where I'm simply "complaining." The truth is, if you read through my history on this forum, it's mostly a long history of queries, helping and suggestions for VW. It's true I have become frustrated of late, and it's now abundantly clear why. We have somebody managing the BIM strategy of VW who's been hoodwinked into thinking interoperability is the "primary component of BIM." They've even written it down in black and white on this page. And then he has the audacity to accuse me of falling for spin.

It's now pretty clear that NNA is not giving building modelling the priority we think it needs so I will slip away and not "bother" you with my findings (maybe I'll post them elsewhere). Of course these discussions will continue, they'll just be a little more compliant with the official line and more about reinforcing each others choices.

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