Data Records and Symbols

[theob]

I'm having an incredibly tough time attaching a data record to a symbol in a reliable fashion. Maybe someone here can offer some advice because the way these two items interact is anything but intuitive. It's quite frustrating. Here's what I have and what I am trying to accomplish:

I am designing a moderately sized house with 35 windows or so. All of the windows are PIOs inside of symbols. There are probably 7 or 8 unique windows/symbols. I am looking to attach a data record that I created to the windows, and store information about each unique window type with their respective symbol. from this, i am looking to create a custom window schedule. i am also looking to place an custom id tag or a simple bit of text linked to the record within the symbol. i am also looking to have the ability to edit the data values from either the window schedule or the window itself, and for the other data instances to automatically update themselves.

I created the custom data record, and attached it to the symbol as a 'symbol default' according to NNAs instructions. however, further changes to the default data record will NOT change the data record of other symbol instances if those symbols are already in place. the vw manual actually confirms this:

"The attached record(s) is included with the symbol each time the symbol is placed in the drawing or imported into another drawing. Symbols already present in the drawing are unaffected. Change the record values of the record format resource to set the default values for the symbol when placed in the drawing."

i was blown away. maybe i am misreading the last sentence? if this is the case, if i place a window and later change the symbol, it won't actually affect the other instances of the symbol that are already place. or to be more precise (from my endless experimenting), it will affect the "symbol defaults" that you see while editing a given symbol (placed or not placed), but it will not affect the 'exterior' data record of the placed symbols (what you see when you exit the symbol editing).

what's the point if that's the case?

[ccroft]

Well, for me the point is that I don't always want every instance of a symbol to carry exactly the same info. I often change field values after insertion for a particular instance, and I don't want that changing if I change the default (or import an edited version of that symbol from my library).

All records in vWorks behave in the same way. The fields which show in the Obj Info Palette for window PIO are record fields. The attachable record you're creating works just like these. You have a default which the object takes on insertion. This value is editable on a case by case basis, but un-affected by subsequent changes to the default. You wouldn't want it any other way.

So if you want to change one of the fields in all the instances of an inserted PIO you create a custom selection and change them all at once.

You can do exactly the same with your symbols.

All of us can identify behaviors in vWorks that we think should be different, but not all of us use this program in the same way. The behavior you wish for would be a nightmare for me. To make both of us happy there needs to be a second kind of record that behaves like a symbol: change the definition and all instances take the change. This record would not be editable on an instance by instance basis in the same way a symbol isn't.

Might be worth posting to the wish list.

[Pat Stanford]

I thought that I had answered this earlier, but I guess it got lost.

Charles is correct. Once a symbol is placed, the geometry will update when you edit the symbol definition, but the record data will not.

I think the idea is that the record data is instance specific( i.e., a window number) and if you updated the record data when you changed a symbol, you would lose all of that data.

Having said that, it would be fairly easy to write a VectorScript that would update all of the instances of a symbol to match the record values of the definition.

[theob]

Thanks for the responses. I still fail to understand why you would want separate data records for the same symbol. If I were to use slightly different info for a symbol, I would just duplicate the symbol (or create a new symbol).

In my case, I am creating a window schedule from the data attached to the window symbols. If I need to change one field in the symbols in the field, it would be nice to not have to change every instance of the symbol in the drawing in order to get my schedule to appear correctly. That seems a bit counter productive to me. I would like to learn vectorscript, but that might take a little while and I need to be able to move ahead with these schedules in the near future.

How would either of you change data globally for a given symbol? Vectorscript? That sounds inefficient, especially if you are changing the data regularly (which I would be).

In my opinion, there should be a setting in the data field of the symbol applies the data globally, or semi-globally. I've worked around a lot of issues, but I am bit surprised that the data issue can not be set globally by a preference, if not by default.

[Pat Stanford]

You should be able to use the Custom Modification command (Tools Menu) to make the change to all of the inserted symbols at one time. You will still need to change the record attached to the Symbol Definition separately.

If I get time I will see what it takes to do the script to match the instances to the definition.

As to why I want to be able to change it. I do a lot of P&IDs (Pipe and Instrument diagrams). I have a standard symbol for an instrument. It has a record attached and the text in that record displays on the drawing using the Link Text to Record command.

This lets me have just a few symbols and by changing the record I can change the text displayed on the drawing.

If I had to make multiple symbols, I would have thousands of symbols in my library rather than just a handful that can be changed by the record.

[theob]

I can see why you would want to be able to apply separate data records to the same symbols in that case. Thousands of symbols is generally not a great thing. I wish they would have a setting that would apply the settings globally to a symbol definition as well though.

I will look into learning some vectorscript to see if I can thrash something out. Any advice you have would be very helpful.

Thanks

[ccroft]

A script such as Pat describes would be a great solution.

In the meantime you could use 'Custom Selection' to create a selection script.

You might use the criteria 'Symbol is'. Click the button to the far right, and pick your symbol.

If you select 'Create Script' from the first window it'll save it in a script palette for future re-use. Double clicking that will select all the instances of the spec'd symbol. You'd need one for each. Any change you make in the data tab will affect all selected, provided you have the correct layer option settings. This is also a great way to start investigating vScript. Option double-click (Mac) the script in the palette to see the code.

The reason I like it the way it is: I have a library of symbols that I use for estimating as I create the layout. I have a field that has a default starting point for time to manufacture each component, but very often there are factors which do not show in the graphic representation that require me to adjust that number on a case by case basis.

I have other fields for material costing that sometimes require massaging in the same way.

I don't want a library full of symbols that look the same and who's only difference is an entry in a data field. As in Pat's example, I'd soon have a ridiculously huge and practically unusable library. I'm not even sure how I'd create a naming scheme that would make sense.

I agree that there should be a more elegant built-in solution for your situation while still retaining the current behavior. Under 'Tools' there are some menu commands for editing the fields in the definition records. There could be something in there like 'Update Instances' for eg.