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Vectorworks 2010


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I know we have talked about it before Christiaan but Reece (M5d) has a point, just out of curiosity what is (in your eyes) the difference between a general modeller and a building modeller (except for the fact that it does not only cater for architects) and how do these relate, in your personal view, to a BIM application?

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To be honest most discussion around here that doesn't tow the party line is controversial. I don't particularly want to get into a discussion on this matter, I was just correcting a misquote.

To be clear I haven't called anything a general modeler. I said "at it's core." You can't be too careful around here. Secondly I usually use the term freeform modeler. General modeler was a term I picked up off Brudgers. Vectorworks, first and foremost, is a freeform modeler, general modeler... whatever. It doesn't rely on parametric modelling in the same way as Revit or ArchiCAD. How this fact could be controversial is beyond me.

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I know we have talked about it before Christiaan but Reece (M5d) has a point, just out of curiosity what is (in your eyes) the difference between a general modeller and a building modeller (except for the fact that it does not only cater for architects) and how do these relate, in your personal view, to a BIM application?

Vincent, one thing is very clear to me from my discussions here with you, you're not genuinely interested in discussing these matters based on merit. What you're interested in is confirming your own religious choice in software. So if you really want to read a summary of my view you can see it here:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=29210

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I'm just curious, I'm not out to start a fight :)

I'm curious about what you see as being the advantages of VW being a building modeller instead of a general/freeform modeller, or disadvantages of not being one? I ask because you seem to have argued that they should be(concentrate on) this in earlier discussions (if I have not missinterpreted your opinions).

Perhaps this is an uninteresting discussion because I'm quite convinced that VW (and all the other apps (the ones that are not already)) will be full fledged 'freeform building BIM apps' in a couple of years anyway (if not sooner).. ;)

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Vincent, one thing is very clear to me from my discussions here with you, you're not genuinely interested in discussing these matters based on merit. What you're interested in is confirming your own religious choice in software.

I don't have to confirm my choice in this matter, I'm (still) completely convinced, despite VW shortcomings.

What do you mean by merit, that is a very wide field of view, plus differently judged by every person/practice in question. Perhaps our different points of view originate mainly in our different needs/ways of working?! In that case we cannot see eye to eye.

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To be honest most discussion around here that doesn't tow the party line is controversial. I don't particularly want to get into a discussion on this matter, I was just correcting a misquote.

To be clear I haven't called anything a general modeler. I said "at it's core." You can't be too careful around here. Secondly I usually use the term freeform modeler. General modeler was a term I picked up off Brudgers. Vectorworks, first and foremost, is a freeform modeler, general modeler... whatever. It doesn't rely on parametric modelling in the same way as Revit or ArchiCAD. How this fact could be controversial is beyond me.

Unfortunately, you and the talented Mr. Brugders are quite wrong ? totally wrong, in fact.

What you see in ArchiCAD or Revit may look like a parametric building modeler, but the 3D-geometric heart ticking inside is no different from that of VW. Those programs are simply just more limited and in no way fundamentally more capable. I gather, you see, that they are all programmed with C++. At least all have APIs (application programming interfaces) based on that.

On the other hand, you are right, too. VW Architect costs about 25% of ArchiCAD or Revit, so quite obviously it does not have all the same (or comparable) functionality out of the box. However, there's no fundamental reason why it could not have, while also retaining capabilities that are not present in ArchiCAD or Revit.

When I was using ArchiCAD, the program dictated my architecture. Only with an enormous effort in programming GDL-objects, I got anything else than ?bricks?. (Yes, in the GDL-language, you by and large create bricks: that is the name of an extrusion in ArchiCAD.)

After ending up in a situation where I did half of the work in MiniCAD and imported that into ArchiCAD via DXF, I tossed the latter. Not that I could not consider using it again, had I simple enough jobs.

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It was down at the time. I'll be happy to discuss it further there, not here.

P.O. mate nobody cares about your opion...go seek attention somewhere else..better still seek medical help.HTH

Well, that must be Expert Advice. How are your sessions with the shrink going? Are they letting you out of the institution any time soon?

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On the other hand, you are right, too. VW Architect costs about 25% of ArchiCAD or Revit, so quite obviously it does not have all the same (or comparable) functionality out of the box. However, there's no fundamental reason why it could not have, while also retaining capabilities that are not present in ArchiCAD or Revit.

This is the bit I'm interested in. I think VWA needs to go up in price. The programming side of things interests me very little.

Indeed it seems the first to get a good balance of complex modelling capabilities and mature building modelling capabilities will win the day. In our office the jury is still out.

Edited by Christiaan
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On the other hand, you are right, too. VW Architect costs about 25% of ArchiCAD or Revit, so quite obviously it does not have all the same (or comparable) functionality out of the box. However, there's no fundamental reason why it could not have, while also retaining capabilities that are not present in ArchiCAD or Revit.

This is the bit I'm interested in. I think VWA needs to go up in price. The programming side of things interests me very little.

Indeed it seems the first to get a good balance of complex modelling capabilities and mature building modelling capabilities will win the day. In our office the jury is still out.

No-one here is actually interested in the Spanish Inquisition called programming, but that is what needs to be done to get those parametrics.

If your CAD-system relies ONLY on parametric objects, you and your fellow jury members will be held hostage and can only do architecture that a programmer has been able to envision.

VW, I understand, works very well for architects in Germany and Switzerland: the distributor, Computerworks, has produced an entire system of add-ons. Your problem, I think, is largely caused by the fact that you try to use VWMcMansion to do an architect's job.

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@ SHAUN

Thanks for the welcome. I checked out your website and appreciate your work there. I too have used TCAD in the past - up until about r.12, I think. It got a bit buggy then but may have recovered by now it seems. TCAD is what got me interested in 3D modeling from the start - r.7! You are right about getting away from Autodesk. There are some options now days, but it is always a struggle for the others to keep up with Adesk's budget which is the size of a small country's. For 2D/limited3D work I have begun to use Bricscad 9Pro because it is capable, will export .3ds with a plugin, is inexpensive and the developers seem to be actively involved.

Best,

two

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I agree Kool. You see what I mean when I say "at its core" is not its programming core but its core capability.

But, Mr. Dumpty, words do not mean what you choose them to mean. The superficial, out of the box, implementation, is not the core.

Equally, my reference to pure and plain C++ is humpty-dumptian: the core of VW is the SDK and various libraries, eg. Parasolid. I gather that the SDK (C++ -based development environment) has much more core power than has been implemented.

Even with VectorScript, a dedicated member of the Inquisition can do things you don't see in VWMcMansion.

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VW, I understand, works very well for architects in Germany and Switzerland: the distributor, Computerworks, has produced an entire system of add-ons.

What kind of Add-ons? Any chance we can get ahold of some here in Sweden?

Maybe they can sell the German VW Architect to Sweden ? I would not know. It costs a lot more than VW McMansion. Whether strict adherence to DIN is good or bad is another thing.

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