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andrewbirch

Vectorworks 2010

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But, Mr. Dumpty, words do not mean what you choose them to mean.

Au contraire, words can have many meanings and thus must be qualified by their users from time to time.

Expect to be misunderstood, then, if you eg. qualify surface to be core from time to time.

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It was down at the time. I'll be happy to discuss it further there, not here.

You have some valid points there Christiaan, but not much concrete opinions about BIM/modelling, one bit of advice though please get some more quality working hours with ArchiCAD before you start advising others on making a choice between the 2.

(an example to show that certain things are not as simple as they seem at first) you say "ArchiCAD knows what storeys and elevations are..." true and it is easy to understand and learn....... however when I had drafted a several story building, everything was fine and dandy, all objects nicely placed on each respective story at the right elevation with the correct wall height , nicely stacked 3D model....BUT then I was suddenly asked to show an alternative for one of the stories......but how? It is not possible to create 2 stories with the same elevation, it is not either possible to create an independent Worksheet with 3D elements so there is in fact no way to show 2 alternatives for one story and have an accurate 3D model at the same time and I can tell you this occurs in every other project I work on.

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Unfortunately, you and the talented Mr. Brugders are quite wrong ? totally wrong, in fact.

What you see in ArchiCAD or Revit may look like a parametric building modeler, but the 3D-geometric heart ticking inside is no different from that of VW. Those programs are simply just more limited and in no way fundamentally more capable. I gather, you see, that they are all programmed with C++. At least all have APIs (application programming interfaces) based on that.

On the other hand, you are right, too. VW Architect costs about 25% of ArchiCAD or Revit, so quite obviously it does not have all the same (or comparable) functionality out of the box. However, there's no fundamental reason why it could not have, while also retaining capabilities that are not present in ArchiCAD or Revit.

When I was using ArchiCAD, the program dictated my architecture. Only with an enormous effort in programming GDL-objects, I got anything else than ?bricks?. (Yes, in the GDL-language, you by and large create bricks: that is the name of an extrusion in ArchiCAD.)

After ending up in a situation where I did half of the work in MiniCAD and imported that into ArchiCAD via DXF, I tossed the latter. Not that I could not consider using it again, had I simple enough jobs.

You are missing the point.

Defining application software in terms of the developer's view and the mechanics of the engine is a long outdated paradigm.

The server side is irrelevant to what the software is. Otherwise we would classify vectorworks, revit, autocad, etc as database applications.

A building modeler is a piece of software designed to present the contents of the object database in a way that models buildings, construction techniques, and facilities procurement and management processes.

To draw an obvious distinction, nowhere within buildings, construction, or facilities procurement and managment are extrudes, solids, sweeps, and lofts the objects of primary concern (except of course if your lofty goal is building lofts, but that of course is another matter).

While the a portion of engine beneath a building modeler may deal with extrudes, they should present themselves as building objects (e.g. baseboards, mouldings, gutters, etc) and have the intelligence to associate themselves with the approprate builing objects (wall.surface.baseboard, roof.eave.gutter, wall.surface.moulding, ceiling.lowersurface.moulding, etc.).

Vectorworks does have some features for modeling building information and some for virtual construction.

The limitation is partially a result of treating the layer as the primary container for drawing objects rather than treating layer as an attribute of each object. Thus all Vectorworks building models are forced into a virtual pinbar drafting system of organization.

Most definately.

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It was down at the time. I'll be happy to discuss it further there, not here.

You have some valid points there Christiaan, but not much concrete opinions about BIM/modelling, one bit of advice though please get some more quality working hours with ArchiCAD before you start advising others on making a choice between the 2.

In the early 1990s, when I was acting as an ArchiCAD trainer, I met quite a few architects who had bought the program and ?assumed? that it does this and that. Well, it didn't. No program would have and even today does not.

But the sales pitch has always been remarkable and they had taken it all: hook, line and sinker. Even the float. A Catholic salvation?

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But, Mr. Dumpty, words do not mean what you choose them to mean. The superficial, out of the box, implementation, is not the core.

Equally, my reference to pure and plain C++ is humpty-dumptian: the core of VW is the SDK and various libraries, eg. Parasolid. I gather that the SDK (C++ -based development environment) has much more core power than has been implemented.

Even with VectorScript, a dedicated member of the Inquisition can do things you don't see in VWMcMansion.

A person of your erudition in all things computer related should certainly know that core is an OSX only set of technologies and that as such are not applicable to vectorworks due to it's dual platform nature.

Your ongoing contanglement of meanings only creates confusion.

Most definitely.

Edited by brudgers

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Unfortunately, you and the talented Mr. Brugders are quit

Vectorworks does have some features for modeling building information and some for virtual construction.

The limitation is partially a result of treating the layer as the primary container for drawing objects rather than treating layer as an attribute of each object. Thus all Vectorworks building models are forced into a virtual pinbar drafting system of organization.

Most definately.

Why don't you take a 101-course on database design before talking about databases? They are among the variety of things about which you know absolutely nothing.

A layer is pretty much a database table. Specifically, it can be the equivalent of a floor in ArchiCAD, but does not have to be so limited. A floor, in VW, can (and should, when we're talking about real buildings that architects desing, not McMansions by draughting services) be formed several layers/tables. Sets, that is.

The ancient tag-paradigm is laughable.

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I think I was an architect before your mother was born.

I will place as much weight on that thought as I place on most of your others.

Most definitely.

Edited by brudgers

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Ah, still nothing on the company website.

I still don't understand how you can take pre-orders and promise delivery within two weeks on the web seminar if you don't have any info available. Nothing.

What gives?

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Why don't you take a 101-course on database design before talking about databases? They are among the variety of things about which you know absolutely nothing.

A layer is pretty much a database table. Specifically, it can be the equivalent of a floor in ArchiCAD, but does not have to be so limited. A floor, in VW, can (and should, when we're talking about real buildings that architects desing, not McMansions by draughting services) be formed several layers/tables. Sets, that is.

The ancient tag-paradigm is laughable.

In Vectorworks there is not a user accessible container at a higher level than layer. Thus symbols can not contain objects on multiple layers, nor is their a container "floor" which can hold objects on multiple layers.

As shown by the stair PIO, it is possible to have an object which is attached-to/referenced-by/referenced-to multiple (two) layers. However, there is not a public user interface for doing so. Nor are their accessible code examples for those inclined toward programming.

"Paradigm" is a useful word when one means paradigm. And since I doubt that you actually laugh very much, I am glad that it has brightened your day.

Most definitely.

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Why don't you take a 101-course on database design before talking about databases? They are among the variety of things about which you know absolutely nothing.

A layer is pretty much a database table. Specifically, it can be the equivalent of a floor in ArchiCAD, but does not have to be so limited. A floor, in VW, can (and should, when we're talking about real buildings that architects desing, not McMansions by draughting services) be formed several layers/tables. Sets, that is.

The ancient tag-paradigm is laughable.

In Vectorworks there is not a user accessible container at a higher level than layer.

Fancy that! In a database, there can't be anything at a higher level than a table!

Surely your mother will be proud of you now, my young friend master Brudgers.

EDIT

Unbeknownst to Master Brugers: there is a higher level container. In VW-parlance we call it a file or document. Mother Brudgers should have known.

Edited by Kool Aid

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EDIT

Unbeknownst to Master Brugers: there is a higher level container. In VW-parlance we call it a file or document. Mother Brudgers should have known.

The existence of documents went without saying.

Your confusion regarding instances and classes provides a teachable moment.

Most definitely.

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How about Set Theory 101 for both Master & Mother Brudgers?

Being correct in theory does not mean you have selected the relevant theory.

Most definitely.

Edited by brudgers

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Your confusion regarding instances and classes provides a teachable moment.

Master Brudgers, would you care to elaborate?

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How about Set Theory 101 for both Master & Mother Brudgers?

Being correct in theory does not mean you have selected the relevant theory.

But I have. BIM is all about sets. Your future daydreams, McMansions, are not.

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Master Brudgers, would you care to elaborate?

Yes, even Santa can make such an error.

Most definitely.

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The recent postings in this thread have no relevance to the topic and have become derogatory. Therefore the thread is now being locked to prevent further posts.

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