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Quick Draw McGraw

Vectorworks Structural

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How about an additional VW package to include various tools for us Structural draftees out there. I've written several small ones which help but I think NNA could do better and include things like Reinforced Concrete tools, Footings, Retaining Walls, Steel connections etc. Just a thought.

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I mentioned this in another post but I'll repeat it.

If Nemetschek want's to make in-roads into the AutoCAD market, they have to target the structural engineering industry. I'm actually working for an engineering company in Australia and they're using AutoCAD and PDMS (Plant Design Management System). They do the 3D in PDMS and working drawings in AutoCAD. PDMS is extremely powerful and it can do structural work and advanced pipework and all the time keeping a live database, however it is extremely un-user friendly and it's extremely cumbersome and buggy. I look at what it can do and I know with VectorScript, these features/commands are possible in VW. Therefore I know if there was an Engineering module, Vectorworks would replace both the programs in this company. Nemetschek needs to hire a Structural and Civil Engineer, spend some resources in programming another module (say Vectorworks Structure) and attack the Engineering industry. Once the Engineering industry is won over, the battle over AutoCAD WILL become easier.

That's my 2cents.

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Once the Engineering industry is won over, the battle over AutoCAD WILL become easier.

That's my 2cents.

Engineer!! This is a term that is now used much too loosely. A Plumber is now a Heating Engineer. Those that work with sewers are now Waste Water Engineers.

When i was a kid an Engineer was involved in one form or another of Mechanical Engineering, so be careful what you ask for, or NNA will point you in the direction of Machine Design.

If it's a Tool that is associated with Civil Engineering that you wish for, then you may find it's best to ask for just that or you'll be building your bridges with gearboxes and running your public amenity services through compression springs . . . .

:)

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I mentioned this in another post but I'll repeat it.

If Nemetschek want's to make in-roads into the AutoCAD market, they have to target the structural engineering industry.

But who says they want to make in-roads into the AutoCAD market? And why should they? Is this really being suggested as a marker of success?

I just want a good VWA product, I don't care about the AutoCAD market. I don't understand this idea that in order for a CAD/BIM app to be successful must also be successful for engineers. Or even that to be successful for architects it must be successful for engineers too!

It seems to me that a negative of VW back is that it tries to be too many things to too many people, and, from my point of view in architecture, this has manifested itself in the form of general 3D modelling instead of building modelling.

In saying that, if there were any two modules that would suit being in the same app it's probably engineering and architecture.

Edited by Christiaan

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Anyone know how the VW user base is divided (in percents) into the different specialization?

Edited by Vincent C

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Being a smartarse Bruce was never my intension, i just never packed my sense of humour away in the attic.

What i was trying to point out, however inefficiently, that often it is suggested that we already have all we need, we just don't know it yet.

i wish for example that MD could be given even 35% of the attention that NNA gives to Achitect, but . . . . .

Vincent, Architect gets most of it as the others are poorly supported.

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Vincent, Architect gets most of it as the others are poorly supported.

Sorry to hear that Andrew, but we architects are much more important ;)

I didn't really mean support-wise i meant user-wise.

The reason for my asking is to get an impression of priorities inside NNA and mainly the direction VW is (should be) heading.

Don't get me wrong, part of the reason i like VW over other apps is its width, though some have expressed the wish for VW to be more of a building modeler not a 3D modeler, it's the added 3D modeling capabilities that appeal to me.

Having said this I believe that to compete with other Apps Architect has to be a better building modeler but i don't want to lose the 3D modeling and other capabilities VW offer so it is important(i think) to keep developing(adding) as many other specialization as possible.

I guess it all comes down to the development costs in the end......

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At the VW2009 launch meeting the following statistics were provided:

69% Building Design

5% Landscape

5% Theater Design

22% General Design

22% North America

36% Europe

41% Asia/Pacific

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OK thanks Pat! Thats about what i would have expected, in other words, though in the majority architects shouldn't get so cocky :)

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Vincent, Architect gets most of it as the others are poorly supported.

Sorry to hear that Andrew, but we architects are much more important ;)

I didn't really mean support-wise i meant user-wise.

My comment was for both. It's as a result that "A" has much more users now than "MD" that it gets all the attention.

On both sides of the NNA divide, it has been stated that there is not enough resources available for the VW crew to do all the things that everyone asks for and subsequently a dedicated Civil Engineering package( which would probably help development of Machine Design no end) where stress assessment factors would be a wonderful addition to the VW kit, is unlikely to take shape for many years to come. If ever.

i'd love NNA to set aside RD time for large scale engineering and throw it all into the civil sandwhich box, as the needs for this tool would bring MD into this century.

Still wishful thinking . . . . . .?

Maybe not . . . . ?

:)

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Pat?? *^&$?&*(*

You left out the 4% for MD @?%

:):):)

Edited by AndiACD

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i'd love NNA to set aside RD time for large scale engineering and throw it all into the civil sandwhich box, as the needs for this tool would bring MD into this century.

Still wishful thinking . . . . . .?

Maybe not . . . . ?

:)

I think it's a bit like the safety issue in F1 racing not really 'functional' in racing however essential non the less, the technology that develops from having a multiuser base in VW and their demands will make VW more flexible and more innovative (i believe). As an architect i have to have a certain amount of knowledge of all disciplines involved in building, if VW can help me with this it makes me a more competent architect.

Part of the issue i'm guessing is that to continue competing on the same level with the other apps with only a fraction (i'm guessing) of the resources might force NNA to focus on only 1 or 2 disciplines. This would be a great shame!

On the other hand having acquired Graphisoft might give them a short cut with regards to RD in developing VW building modeling aspects, leaving more funds for the rest?!

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As an architect i have to have a certain amount of knowledge of all disciplines involved in building, if VW can help me with this it makes me a more competent architect.

Educating architects is a daft reason for compromising on specialisation.

CAD/BIM is a means to an ends. Don't lose sight of this.

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Educating architects is a daft reason for compromising on specialization.

I'm not talking about education, VW is a tool, if this tool gives me the added possibility of checking and questioning any aspect of the building process in the same amount of time with the same tool, therefore creating a better end product, this is invaluable.

Here i think an excellent example is the new ThermoRender capability developed in Japan. http://bldgsim.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/thermal-analysis-in-vectorworks-with-thermorender/

You can argue that thermodynamics is not part of an architects competence so why add it to VW, well with a click of the mouse it gives us the possibility to identify problems in which we have little competence and gives us the possibility to attack an otherwise invisible problem at an early stage, doesn't sound so daft to me.

Nobody said anything about compromising specialization, the issue is what specialization(s) to concentrate on.

Edited by Vincent C

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The answer is in BIM .. more hooks & handles to more apps. and modules ...

the world is awash in viable code ... no sense reinventing the wheel ...

if we could just make use of all the installed code on our own workstations we

would be amazed at the power & functionality buried beneath the surface.

NNA needs to scour the planet for all the pieces and then find a reasonable way to compile the stuff ...

Hey ... isn't this exactly what Wolfram "Alpha" is now doing ?

It should be possible to ask "Alpha" specific civil & structural questions and get specific answers.

Possibly, VW export to Alpha would provide all the backup we are seeking

in a very cost effect reliable manner avoiding additional code overhead & redundancy.

A similar code advantage already exists with Google Earth & Sketchup.

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VW is a tool, if this tool gives me the added possibility of checking and questioning any aspect of the building process in the same amount of time with the same tool, therefore creating a better end product, this is invaluable.

If that?s what you want (and it?s certainly what I want) then adding an engineer's module is a daft way to go about it. Architects/designers have specific needs with regards to engineering, mostly to do with conceptual design, early design decisions and conflict resolution.

Here i think an excellent example is the new ThermoRender

Fine, but that?s not an engineer?s tool for an engineer?s module. It?s a design tool for an architect?s module.

Nobody said anything about compromising specialization

I did. I think you compromise the ability to specialise a piece of software like VW if you try to cater to too many users. The difference between ArchiCAD?s understanding of what a building is and Vectorworks is a good example of this compromise I think.

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If that?s what you want (and it?s certainly what I want) then adding an engineer's module is a daft way to go about it. Architects/designers have specific needs with regards to engineering, mostly to do with conceptual design, early design decisions and conflict resolution.

Yeah that's what i mean but if you want some help with structure or landscaping etc. you get it free, easy to use and right there at you're finger tips. Sorry don't see the daftness...this is still exactly why VW heads the list in my book.

Fine, but that?s not an engineer?s tool for an engineer?s module. It?s a design tool for an architect?s module.

It was an example of how specialization outside an architects field of competence suddenly can be part of his decision making in an early stage of design, without any extra education.

I did. I think you compromise the ability to specialise a piece of software like VW if you try to cater to too many users. The difference between ArchiCAD?s understanding of what a building is and Vectorworks is a good example of this compromise I think.

This is exactly why Bentley Microstation beats them all, it does cater for all and all sides are properly thought out, it functions well as a whole. I think it's a way to see VW - as a Microstation light. That is at least how I want it to be, AC is too stumped for my liking (a good architects tool though no doubt)

Why would NNA want to have 2 similar products with 2 different names and try to sell them for 2 different prices to the same people, now that sounds daft??

Edited by Vincent C

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You left out the 4% for MD

Since I am one of the users of Machine Design, I wish we had a 4% user base.

Unfortunately, my guess is closer to 0.4%

Luckily many of the tools are also included in Designer, so they are not likely to go away.

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Sorry Pat, i must have misread the quote from a few threads back, but i was sure(if not by yourself) that it was posted as 4%. Wishful thinking yet again.

:)

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I think the NAG reference is important. Not NNA, but NAG has the foundations. My pick is for VW to remain a design oriented tool (and you all know my wishes in that regard).

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NAG have powerfull applications, that's the point. The problem it's that they are not integrated. How can they be integrated: maybe plug-ins or a common format between all the NAG products, I really don't know.

Allplan and Scia are used in their region and maybe NAG don't have as a goal to compete with those products in America.

Here, I live in a caribbean Island, the touristic development is huge, very huge, and that implies contact with many people, most from europe. I have found several german and belgan arhcitects that use allplan. Maybe Italians, Frenchs and Spanish use Autodesk products. I know in Japan, Vw is preferred. Here in my country, the adoption of Vw is growing.

Maybe at this moment Vw and others NAG products can do good, because the world market more than the US market, it's a litle more open minded.

Edited by Mr. Gog

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get rid of Archicad if they cant develope a viable engineering suite.

LOL, you never did explain your logic behind this balmy idea.

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My pick is for VW to remain a design oriented tool (and you all know my wishes in that regard).[/Quote]

Haven't noticed; read, heard any of it - would you mind telling us what is really on your mind

The question is how to intergrate "thee starving artists", This is where VW can play a role,including engineering BIM might just save your A***? Thats if its worth saving?[/Quote]

And from this thread

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121877#Post121877

Whatever Ozzie, I?m just saying we need more criticism, not less. Those of you who are delicate little flowers can just choose to ignore my criticisms and suggestions if you like. [/Quote]

Point is this - I think Chris is quite correct

Beyond that I think it is almost selfish to not admit that

I had a wild old time a little while ago sharing site model info from VW to Microstation people

Question - is ArchiCAD good at that?

The greater level of interoperability that can be gained at the base level of design ? engineering ? the better

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