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billtheia

Paste In Place not working on Sheet Layers between different files

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I have a set of sheet layers (including objects on those layers) in one VW file that I'd like to bring into another VW file. Unfortunately, there isn't any easy way to do this. VW doesn't have an Import Objects option when creating new sheet layers like they do with design layers. So, I can create the sheet layers themselves but none of the objects come with them. Instead, I have to copy and paste them between the two files. Very 21st century.

When I try to copy and paste in place, however, the objects don't go where I'd expect. The center of the source file's sheet layer is 0,0. The center of the target file's sheet layers is also 0,0. BUT when I select the objects I want to copy in the source file and try to paste in place in the target file, the objects don't center on the page. Instead, they land WAY off center (like 501',-218' +/-).

Can someone out there help me figure out why this is happening?

Thanks.

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I'm not sure why it's happening (probably because sheet layers and VP's cannot be pasted from file to file) but I think I know how you can fix it. It requires that you place a very precise, known reference point in the EXACT same location in each of your files. What I have found works best is to GROUP all of the info that is being COPIED & PASTED, create a 2d LOCUS at a specific point (like the NW building corner, or the center of a particular tree or symbol). Then when you paste the GROUP you will be able to either drag the group to the locus, or move the group a precise distance to make it align as desired.

Of course it's probably too late for this now, but the other way that works is to do a "Save As" of the first file thereby creating an exact copy of the it (with a new name). Then you CAN copy and paste in place all of the Design Layer data (which will fill in under and within the VP's etc.)

Hope that helps.

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Thanks for the response, Peter.

I know that I can't copy & paste sheet layers or VPs between files. I'm simply trying to paste titleblocks, notes, and other objects from one file's sheet layer to another. I've done this before between sheet layers in the same file and it worked as expected.

The behavior is like the two drawings have different origin points but I haven't moved any origins (at least not knowingly.) When I look at the rulers on the sheet layers in each of the files, they both show 0,0 at the center of the sheet so I assume that the origins are in the same place.

Your idea of using a 2d locus will probably do the trick but will involve a bit more work than pasting in place (if I could get it to work properly.)

We really need a better way to move things between files (including VPs & Design Layers, Sheet Layers, and Saved Views.) Copy & paste isn't exactly a productivity booster, especially when you can't get it to work properly.

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Bill, its the origin of the Design Layer which is important not the Sheet Layer. Check to make sure the origin of each files Design Layers are in the centre of the page.

Rather than copy and paste from Design Layer to Design Layer try importing the required layers in via the New Layer dialog box option of from a Vw file (put a checkmark against import Layer objects). You will need to make sure the layer names are unique and be aware that duplicate resources may be a problem (as they are with copy and paste).

Note: You can also import Sheet Layers, but not including their contents. That is because Sheet Layers are for print output and their source information comes from Design Layers. The only thing actualy on the Sheet Layers is annotation. The rest is a scaled virtual copy of the information on the source Design Layers.

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Thanks, Mike. That did the trick.

Again, though, I'm talking about sheet layers, not design layers, so importing won't work.

Resetting the design layer origin, however, made pasting into sheet layers work as desired. I'm not sure how the DL origin was changed in the first place (I didn't do it on purpose.)

Note back: I find the inability to import objects on sheet layers a big pain in the behind. At a minimum, I'd like to be able to import titleblocks, notes, and other objects (not viewports) that ARE on the sheet layer (as far as I'm concerned.) REALLY, I want to be able to bring VPs over too because (again, as far as I'm concerned) they are just a way to look at the design layers. I'm sure that there are plenty of technical reasons that these things are difficult but that doesn't make me want them any less or make them any less useful.

Thanks again, Mike for your help.

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The isues that exist with Sheet Layers seems to be the price we pay for having a printing capability like Autocad's Paper Space and an equivalent to it for compatibility when importing and exporting.

For Sheet Layers to be importable would probably require that the Design Layers came with them. If they didn't the Viewports would be orphaned. ie they would exist but there would be no source Design Layers.

One way around that issue is to create Template files that already contain all of the information you want. If you use Model setup to define your building and then the Create Standard Viewports command you will have a file containing most the Design Layers, Sheet Layers and Viewports you will need. Add your Title Blocks and Note blocks to the Sheet Layers, and then import what resources you want as a standard. Change other settings to as you want them (tools, text size, text font, custom dimension standards etc.) and then save the result as a Template file. Choose this file when you want to start a new project of that type and much of what you want will be in place ready to go. It would require however that you use Standard Naming.

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For Sheet Layers to be importable would probably require that the Design Layers came with them. If they didn't the Viewports would be orphaned. ie they would exist but there would be no source Design Layers.

A sheet layer import function could important the dependent design layers and classes of each viewport, but it needn't do so.

And the behaviour could easily be controlled with a dialog similar to that for creating a viewport or importing symbols. Moving viewport configurations and overrides between drawings should be easy, and shouldn't require the complexity of modifying "create standard viewports."

In any event certainly doesn't need to import the content of those layers and classes.

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Hi Bill, One answer to some of your frustration is to create Title Block (and perhaps other) SYMBOLS. Because symbols are RESOURCES they can be imported from one file to another quite easily via the Resource Browser.

Another answer could be to create a TEMPLATE file for yourself which already contains many (or all) of your most commonly used stuff (Symbols, textures, hatches, notes, etc. etc.)

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Mike, brudgers, & Peter,

I have created a template file but it slowly evolves over time so I wind up with other files that pre-date it. I also have one set of needs during schematic design and another during CDs so, ideally, I'd like more than one template. Because I'm still pretty new with VW (18 mos.) and because my needs change over time, I've had several occasions where I wanted to bring the information from one file into the structure of another or overlay the sheet layers of one file onto the design layers of another.

In many cases, the design layers and classes of the source and target files are the same and I simply want to use a different set of template sheet layers (and their VPs) to view the model. In some cases the layers are different. But, for me, it always seems to boil down to wanting to use the sheet layer viewports in one file to view the design layers in another. Not easily done in VW. It typically involves copying & pasting content from one file to another. I've tried using DLVPs for this but, in VW2008, class overrides don't work on SLVPs of DLVPs, none of the pre-configured SLVPs refer to the layers that I want, and I can't reference layers with the same name as those in the current file.

I understand that "this is the price we pay..." for VW being VW. I just wish there was an easier way to do what I wanted. I wish that content was truly separate from presentation.

Thanks.

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I wish that content was truly separate from presentation.

You are not Robinson Crusoe there. The reasons you cite are why many have stuck to a 2D Design Layer workflow. If you want to use a 3D workflow though you have to use Sheet Layers and Sheet Layer Viewports.

What we need is a proper publishing capability that can assemble the information from many files into a single document for the production of physical prints, PDFs and WYSIWYG 2D Autocad DWG files.

Allied with that we need to be able to do in Design Layers what can currently only be done in Sheet Layers: model derived elevations, model derived sections and enlarged part drawings (plans, elevations and sections). A system like this would provide the ability to share all of the project information by referencing, thus overcoming the existing problem with Sheet Layers.

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"But, for me, it always seems to boil down to wanting to use the sheet layer viewports in one file to view the design layers in another"

I am really curious about your specific workflow in VW's. It sounds like you might be making things more difficult than they need to be...

One thought: Have you tried WorkGroup Referencing the files?? It may not do exactly what you're asking but I think it might get you awfully close (and perhaps be an acceptable method for your specific wants & needs).

P

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My workflow:

In schematic design (SD), I model several options in a single VW file. Each option generally has it's own set of layers and all options share the same set of classes. I've had as many as 10 different options, each with at least one layer for each floor of the building. When I can, I work out one option and then duplicate the design layer(s) and modify them for the next option. Unfortunately, if the project has a stair, I can't do this because VW does some weird things when you copy a stair (which is a big PAIN.) If the project does have a stair, I create a new layer (or set of layers) for each option and then selectively copy & paste objects (excluding stairs) from one layer to another. Then, I lay out a sheet using SLVPs. once I have a sheet laid out the way I want it for one option, I'll duplicate it and just switch layers on and off in the VP. My SD sheets are seldom the same and the number of options and design layers is always different so I don't have a template set up for SD.

In design development (DD) and construction documents (CD), I have a template set with all design layers, classes, sheet layers, and SLVPs set up. On simple small projects, I'll do SD with the DD/CD template and add sheet layers for my SD presentations. Then, when we've nailed down the design, I'll copy the selected design from it's SD layer to the appropriate DD/CD layer so that the pre-configured SLVPs sort of auto-build the drawing set for me. On larger projects, I'll do SD in a separate file to keep the design layer and classes count to a manageable number, then copy from one file to the other. The copying & pasting process inevitably requires doing some work twice and is rife with the possibility for error.

I've tried using workgroup referencing (WGR) but the fact that attribute overrides don't work for SLVPs showing referenced DLVPs in VW2008 killed that for me (so much for draw once, view many times.) I had planned to try using a single template file for modeling each of my SD options and then referencing them into a one presentation file for SD sheet layouts and one presentation file for DD/CD drawings but VW2008 didn't let me apply attribute overrides to the SLVPs so I couldn't use one set of attributes in a perspective and another in a plan view - this was a deal-breaker for me.

I know that VW2009 is supposed to have fixed the attribute override problem but I've found it to be a bit unstable on my machine and I'm a little wary of fixing one set of problems only to find another set somewhere else. I'm also wary of spending a bunch of time setting up new templates to work around what I see as a shortcoming in VW.

In general, I have found WGR to be pretty cumbersome and confusing. It just doesn't seem like a real substitute for XREFs. Perhaps it will make more sense to me at some point but having to first make a design layer on which to place a DLVP and then having to go back to that DLVP to control visibilities seems like the long way around to me. I have to say I miss being able to simply XREF a file in and then being able to control its visibilities from anywhere (the referenced file had it's own set of layers - read classes - with the file name as a prefix in the layer control dialog.)

The funny thing is, 80% of my "problem" would be solved by being able to "merge" the contents of design layers in one file with those of another. If I could simply import the information from one file design layer into the design layer of another, I could do SD any way I pleased and then import the info from the appropriate design layers in the SD file into the correct design layers in my DD/CD template. If I could overwrite the contents of the design layer in one file with the contents of another file's design layer HAVING THE SAME NAME, I'd be even happier. The fact that the only way to get information from one file's design layer into an existing design layer in another file is to use copy & paste, seems like an oversight to me.

I think that it's a little bit telling that "...many have stuck to a 2D Design Layer workflow." Did I buy into "BIM" with VW a little too soon?

I'm sure that some of my pain with VW is due to my relative inexperience but there are definitely times when I genuinely think that things should be easier to do than they are.

Thanks, all, for your help.

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Anoher solution to my "problem" would be to allow me to directly reference other files with SLVPs.

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Bill ... thanks for your indepth workflow analysis ( wish I could think out-loud like that ; )

you should consider doubling your RAM .. it will make a huge the difference in performance as well as resolve many inherent "instabilities".

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Anoher solution to my "problem" would be to allow me to directly reference other files with SLVPs.

Yep. Sorely missing.

I've mentioned it several times.

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Going along with this topic, although not VW 09'but for 16'; say I annotate my plans on my design layer, then I create a Sheet Layer ViewPort (SLVP) showing my plan but my origin is not in the same place, so when I try to copy paste inplace the annotations end up in the wrong place. Anybody know the fix to this ? I mean in my design layers I set the user origin to internal origin and disable user moving. I also can see my origin that it is within the building but when I go into annotation view for the plan it is outside the building in an irrelevant place. I must be doing something wrong...

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We use Tempates with various Sheet Layers with text and sometimes call outs or whatever is needed. I must admit that I tried the Title Block thing once but found it slightly complex so our Title Blocks are a Design Layer in the Templates. Everything seems to copy/paste ok generally.

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The conflict I'm experiencing, concisely put, is the design layer origin is different from the viewport origin. What would cause this...

Also a WishList request (might be absurd...) ; multiple viewport class overriding, could it be done? Thank you...

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The conflict I'm experiencing, concisely put, is the design layer origin is different from the viewport origin. What would cause this...

Has the sheet on the sheet layer been moved from the origin? You can test/reset it by double clicking on the page move tool in the tool palette. The page will snap back so that the page origin is at the centre of the page. This may affect how things paste into the annotations of a sheet layer viewport (Am I correct in assuming you're trying to paste into the annotations of a sheet layer?)

Kevin

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I think you're on point my sheet on the sheet layer is off origin... that would affect the viewport origin as well I'm assuming. Anyhow I think I can solve the problem from this point on. But to answer your question; I'm trying to paste into the sheet layer viewport (SLVP) annotations section.

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