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Vincent C

PC or Mac

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Sounds good orso! Has your boss thought about letting the PC users work on Mac with windows?...on the other hand why not just let everybody use what they want? Working with both Mac and PC to the same server isn't a problem anymore, is it?

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Can = true, however Leopard is 'locked' so that it can only be installed (legally) on a Mac (what i have understood).

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No obviously networking is not the least problem.

I got Macs in a Windows network without extra software even back in the early '90s, that wasn't a two-steps procedure and took me weeks for studying the windows network and hack it to my needs. Just to show this people in my office that it was possible.

We had two attempts of some Macs in the office. Both failed. But not because of technical difficulties, no. Because of the rather incredible animosity that arose at each Mac. For them it is a provocation. They get out of balance. Please note that we have such a person right now in this forum. I happen to have a large number in the office.

My boss -a dearest friend, BTW- was called to intervene often. We agreed on dropping the Mac. He was sorry. He also wanted a Mac.

It has to do with the way we work in this office. But I could bet that this is to be found in countless other offices.

Either one accepts a standard usage of the software or one enjoys exploring it and using it at top potential.

I believe to belong to the second category. Many of my colleagues in various degrees tend to see themselves in the first category. These ones also want to use MicroStation 1995. Free will. Even if they could use VW. Even if they all have to sit 3-4 hours a day longer than the VW party. And all weekends.

This is because they believe that even basic things like setting up templates, using key shortcuts -yes, is no joke- is bad and could endanger the indeed very unstable windows network. Or is for "computer freaks". Reading the software handbooks for example. Or switching to a better application.

So today we are split in two in the office (what remains of it during this recession): VW and Microstation. We sit in the garden part in the sun, they sit in the cellar.

The VW party searches continuously for alternative workflows to work LESS. They are all freelance, at hourly basis.

The MicroStation party is what I described before. They are employed. So they don't even get paid if they work MORE.

Do you understand it? I don't.

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resist! resist the urge to contribute to this thread!

naaahhh.

Try this wee experiment:

Plug in a printer, scanner, phone, camera, oh just about anything into a Windows machine. Don't bother loading drivers, or software. Then, try to make it work. You'll spend all night.

Do the same with a Mac. It'll work. No restarting. No drivers. No conflicts. And it'll do it in a stable and elegant way. This is not true obviously for everything, but for about 95% of everything that is commonly used in daily computing.

Other stuff: Mac OS X is a true multi-threaded environment, based on one of the oldest operating systems in existence. It works, and when it doesn't, the reason is obvious and logged in simple english. You can go read what happened and why in the log files without having to be a systems analyst.

There are no "networking issues" with Macs. Macs are UNIX-based, which is the OS that practically started the wave of computer networking. I have years of experience as a network admin for a design firm where we had about 60 Macs, 30 Windows machines and about 30 Unix machines. All these were able to talk to each other and "see" servers and services just fine. Anyone who tells you differently has simply not had the time and experience doing what it takes to make things work in that complex of an environment. With Unix's superior SMB networking modules well in place and supported, Macs are easily capable of handling the overly-complicated Windows networking protocols. Like adding peripherals, Macs are definitely "plug-and-play".

Mac OSX does not, and has not for years, get viruses. Windows is plagued with security holes that are constantly exploited. The reasons for this are too involved for this thread, but those characteristics simply do not exist with as much vulnerability in the Mac OS. There are macro viruses that ride in on Microsoft products like Excel and Word, and there are certainly viruses that can be run when an unwitting user downloads and launches an application that is meant to install a virus, but that will be true of any computer. The OS, however, is very stable against viral attack.

Macs are PostScript native. You can create and print PDF's without any other software needed.

Macs have an intuitive and simple interface, a huge following and plenty of support. There are very few applications that are not available on a Mac these days.

They're just really cool looking.

Oh, one other thing: AppleScript. It wipes the floor with WSH.

Polls have been done. Long-time PC users who have switched to Macs are happy with the choice, become re-energized about using the computers and get more creative work done. Long-time Mac users who switch to PC's often go back to the Mac within a very short period of time. Anyone who uses both will tell you that Macs just work with less frustration and more satisfaction.

I've used both environments for decades. Macs have always been superior in many ways. There are zealots in every camp. I choose Macs. I'm happy. That's it.

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Try this: replace the hard disk on your imac because you didn't drop the extra $350 for a real warranty,have the misfortune to live someplace insufficiently hip to have an apple store, or don't want to spend a week waiting for the repair.

Be warned though: suction cups are required.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10210484-17.html

As for the famous security:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=2917

I know there's people out there who will get smug satisfaction from paying $1600 (with monitor and keyboard) for a 2.0gig macMini with a 120gig 5400rpm, two 512meg sticks of ram, and shared video memory...they'll even enjoy the wonders of monophonic sound through the buitin speaker. Heck people bought Yugo's because they were cute, too (and not much more expensive).

I'd offer a side by side comparison to a windows desktop...but but I couldn't find one with a disk that small, processor that slow, and so little ram...at least not one made in the last three years.

Edited by brudgers

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Yes, notice that I said there are no vulnerabilities in the OS. Safari is an HTTP client, not an OS. Internet Exploder for Windows is so deeply embedded now that it IS Windows, hence the security troubles for the OS. Nice work, though, picking the one in a handful of computer geeks capable of hacking into Safari.

So what if you need a few suction cups. This machine is so excellent on my desktop, I don't care. And, why replace a hard drive when you can plug and play an external USB 2.0 drive just by plugging it in and having it show up on the desktop, ready to work, within 3 seconds? The Mac OS allows external drive boot services quite easily. And as far as any data loss from the hypothetical failure, y'all DO backup hourly using the FREE backup software included with every Mac OS X install, right? Of course. Of course.

And the RAM thing, the part they don't tell you is that Unix is so efficient with RAM that you don't need 32GB to run MS Word. I run Vectorworks, Illustrator, Photoshop and my mail and web clients all just fine on my "measly" 4GB.

Also notice that I did not say anything bad about Windows that's not an "opinion" thing (SMB idiosyncrasies are a simple fact), just what's good about Macs. People use Windows all day and are perfectly content with it. Far be it from me to steer them away. Good for them, I say. The IT support industry needs a reason to stay employed, and Microsoft has been happily providing it for them for the last 15 years.

And, by the way, the Yugo was garbage, and was not cute at all. If people weren't smart enough to do the research and discover that on their own before plonking down the cash, then that's their loss.

Caveat Emptor, my good man.

Folks can bash all they want, but I will still sit here and get my work done happily on my Mac, along with all the other people who ARE cool enough to be Mac people ;)

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Yes, notice that I said there are no vulnerabilities in the OS

I guess those turtle necks are handy for covering one's eyes.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/41434/108/

http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/macs-arent-safer-just-a-smaller-target/

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/03/new-osxrsplug-variant-masquerading-as-media-applications-1.ars

Fact is, Microsoft addresses security issues. It doesn't sweep them under the rug...or blatently mislead it's customers.

So what if you need a few suction cups. This machine is so excellent on my desktop, I don't care. And, why replace a hard drive when you can plug and play an external USB 2.0 drive just by plugging it in and having it show up on the desktop, ready to work, within 3 seconds? The Mac OS allows external drive boot services quite easily.

And a Teddy bear cut lengthwise will make an excellent pair of slippers.

And, by the way, the Yugo was garbage, and was not cute at all.

That's the strength of the analogy. The weakness: it wasn't grossly overpriced.

Edited by brudgers

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Good reading this ha ha, such a hot item :), strange that everybody thinks that just because you like one of the 2 better you automatically worship one and hate the other...?!

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OK everyone, I think this has gone about far enough.

I think we know that everyone has an opinion and some have very strong opinions.

Please note the M badge to the left. It mean Moderator. Yes, NNA has asked a few of us to serve as moderators. It means that I have the ability to do more than just post this message, but I hope I don't have to.

If any of you can't stand to not get the last word, please private message it to me. If I think it is valuable, I will post it for you.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Pat Stanford

Moderator

Vectorworks Community Board

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Hi Vincent,

Good luck with your decision. It appears to me that the most of the bashing comments in this thread comes from users experienced mostly if not ONLY with one of the platforms.

I have been with MS since the MS-DOS / 80286 days and also spent enough time with OS/2 and Linux. I never truly tried Apple until the beta release of Boot Camp.

At that time I needed to replace my Dell laptop and the MacBook Pro / Boot Camp combination seemed a perfect solution to my dependency on the MS platform at the time.

My only regret is that I did not do it sooner. It took only few months and I was booting into OS X most of the time. I don't know if I would appreciate OS X as much without my MS experience.

In my MS days I build many PC for friends and many of them never used computers before. Now I know that they would have been much better off if I set them up with Macs.

As far as converting from Windows to OS X, my biggest problem for me was trying to do things the Windows' way. I think that starting with OS X would have been easier if I did not use Windows for all those years before.

Statistically I am sure it is not true, but I feel that most of my time in Windows environment is spent on troubleshooting and maintenance.

I know for sure that besides doing backups, most of my time in OS X is spent on what I need/want to do.

Best of luck.

Edited by PTV

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naaahhh.

Try this wee experiment:

Plug in a printer, scanner, phone, camera, oh just about anything into a Windows machine. Don't bother loading drivers, or software. Then, try to make it work. You'll spend all night.

Do the same with a Mac. It'll work. No restarting. No drivers. No conflicts. And it'll do it in a stable and elegant way. This is not true obviously for everything, but for about 95% of everything that is commonly used in daily computing.

Purchase a new Mac.

Take it out of the box and hook it to your monitor...oops you can't.

Same for your video camera.

Of course it's a great revenue stream:

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/cables?mco=NTMxNDY

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Guest jkelly

I think they've stopped including the adapter for free recently, but for a long time you got a VGA adapter for free with your Mac. And if they've stopped including it, it's because modern monitors don't use VGA, they use HDMI.

As far as video cameras, Macs have USB and Firewire.

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New macs use a non-standard video connector called "minidisplay port."

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort

New macs have FireWire 800 (IEEE 1394b-2002) ports rather than the ubiquitous IEEE 1394a-2000 used by video camera manufacturers for many products.

Monitors you can just plug in to a new Mac start at 900 bucks. I have to admit it's genius...who is going to hide their white minimac away and have a big black HP on their desk?

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Going by your logic we'd still be using 5 1/4" floppy disks, VCRs, and CGA monitors. How dare these people use newer technology?

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My criticism isn't of the technology or the change.

My criticism is of the repitition of propoganda.

You can't just plug your existing monitor into your new Mac.

Is it a big deal? Well, it's nothing that can't be fixed with a $99 adaptor (don't worry, they come in white and have an authentic logo).

I'm not so dense as to need to ask why a non-standards compliant interace with no technological benefits was incorporated.

The "cin" in $900 "cinema" says it all.

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Guest jkelly

My mac has an HDMI port on it, which hooks directly via an HDMI cable to my $300 22" monitor which was designed to work with any computer. It seems you are right though, it looks like on all Apple laptops they now only offer the new mini-display port.

As far as whether it is "non-standard" though, it is literally standard, as the wikipedia article states that it is being included in the new VESA standards.

I don't really see the problem with buying a cable for a few bucks if you want to hook it up to something else. Personally I think it's better than being stuck with just VGA.

1394b is backwards compatible with 1394a, so I don't really see how that's a problem.

Edited by jkelly

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My mac has an HDMI port on it, which hooks directly via an HDMI cable to my $300 22" monitor which was designed to work with any computer. It seems you are right though, it looks like on all Apple laptops they now only offer the new mini-display port.

Same with the Mini.

As far as whether it is "non-standard" though, it is literally standard, as the wikipedia article states that it is being included in the new VESA standards.

Yes, they're writing a special standard to make it compliant...VESA has always tried to be accomodating to it's members.

I don't really see the problem with buying a cable for a few bucks if you want to hook it up to something else. Personally I think it's better than being stuck with just VGA.

Yes, you can buy a new cable white cable with a logo. The question is, how is that benefitting you? Do you feel better after forking over money to Apple? [rhetorical question].

1394b is backwards compatible with 1394a, so I don't really see how that's a problem.

The connector isn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewire

Again it's nothing that can't be fixed by a white cable or two.

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So it's not that VESA think it's a step forward, it's obviously something far more sinister or under-the-table, is that what you're saying? I hope the planet you live on has an impressive agricultural output because you're running out of straws to clutch.

The "new cable white cable with a logo" is benefitting you because you wanted to plug the monitor in. You would not have bought it if you didn't. You probably wouldn't have bought the MDP-based Mac if you forsaw this as a problem.

Is that what they call 'Logic'? [Rhetorical question]

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Guest jkelly

But you don't have to buy a *white* cable or two. You don't have to give any money to Apple. You can buy any cable you want. Several manufacturers make them. You do the same thing you do with a PC when you find you need a different cable to connect to something. You go get one. This is why anyone who has worked with computers for any length of time ends up with a big basket of random connectors and adapters.

And VESA is a standards body. How would one standard be more special than another from their perspective?

I think you should relax, take a deep breath, and realize that it's okay for people to have different operating systems. At least Macs are speaking TCP/IP by default these days! :)

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VESA (video electronics standards association) writes standards for the products it's members (such as Apple) create...goes way back to a collaborative effort the 640x480 BIOS limitations on the PC.

These days, it's not so much about progress, it's just about what it's members make...that's why a standard for 20.1" displays came out after those for 24" displays and 22" displays.

I haven't seen anything listing the technical benefits of miniDVI...such as increased bandwith, enhanced resolution, etc.

If you know of something please share it.

----

Edit: As for the big box of cables we all have ...none of them work with minidvi.

Edit: The wikipedia article is in dispute...as noted on the discussion page search of VESA website for "mini display port" doesn't turn up any hits.

Edited by brudgers

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Guest jkelly
VESA (video electronics standards association) writes standards for the products it's members (such as Apple) create...goes way back to a collaborative effort the 640x480 BIOS limitations on the PC.

Right. But they're standards. You said they were non-standard. That isn't the case. They are standards, and there are plenty of other manufacturers making cables to this standard. Just because the thing *you* chose to use doesn't use this standard, doesn't make it any less a standard. In fact, was VGA ever adopted by a standards body, or is it still just put out there by IBM? *That* wouldn't be "standard" if you want to be technical.

I haven't seen anything listing the technical benefits of miniDVI...such as increased bandwith, enhanced resolution, etc.

I'm assuming you mean mini displayport? As opposed to what? I'd say one immediate technical benefit is that it's smaller. That certainly is helpful when putting it into smaller machines. As far as its technical merits, I suppose to answer that we'd have to know what you wanted to compare it to. Comparing it to a mainstream Dell laptop, for instance, they are still using VGA. So I guess the advantage to mini displayport vs VGA is that it's digital.

Edit: As for the big box of cables we all have ...none of them work with minidvi.

And before you got the adapter for $foo in the box, you had no adapters in the box that worked with $foo.

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