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Vincent C

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Let's be clear.

MiniDisplay Port is not part of any current standard.

In my opinion, the failure to comply with an existing standard is the essence of "non-standard." If you can point to an actual standard mini display port meets, please do.

If by "standards compliant," you mean "might be a part of or similar to a hypothetical standard proposed in the indeterminate future," then yes I suppose it is.

The Mac press has reported that it will be incorporated into a future standard (1.2), interestingly there are no sources cited or external links to Apple (let alone VESA).

There is nothing on the VESA website indicating that a 1.2 standard is forthcoming, let alone that it will include mini display port or that it will be identical to what Apple has specified and is licensing.

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...so what you're saying is that i should buy a PC because if i buy a Mac i have to buy a bunch of adapter cables too?!

Edited by Vincent Cuclair

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...so what you're saying is that i should buy a PC because if i buy a Mac i have to buy a bunch of adapter cables too?!

No, He is just saying that the Mac is not different from a PC! They are both Personal Computers but only use another Operating System.

With a PC, you can choose what you want inside, with a Mac, You can't (there are options, but limited). On the other hand, the configurations of the macs are really good tested and will work (it can fail like any other pc, but less). with a pc, sometimes the hardware will not work togheter well, and you'll have to replace something. I had this with my own pc last summer, but if you put in a litter effort and get a good combination, it's worth it. For those who don't want to do this, there are also pc's put togheter for you. These are normally tested so they also work, but I think that mac put just that little more effort in it to get a working combination. The down side to mac is that it's not up to date. They use components that are old (in the pc world) and I do not mean bad. So it can be that you need to replace your mac sooner than a high-end pc.

I think that you just need to think for yourself what you want and expect from a computer. Do you want to do an effort when something is wrong? (getting the benefits from it later?). Do you want high-end or not? Does the looks count? (pc's can be ugly, but they are some beuatiful ones). Do you want to spend more mony? ...

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Well that's all fine, but as i wrote in the first post i'm looking for a notebook/laptop, not too much customizing you can do with those either Mac or PC.......i have a HP compaq now, there's been something wrong with the graphics card from the start, but you can't replace it so i just got to accept it......

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Well that's all fine, but as i wrote in the first post i'm looking for a notebook/laptop, not too much customizing you can do with those either Mac or PC.......i have a HP compaq now, there's been something wrong with the graphics card from the start, but you can't replace it so i just got to accept it......

In previous version of Vectorworks, NNA recommended against ATI graphics cards.

Mobile graphics drivers are dependent on the laptop manufacturer to write. In my experience they perform reasonably well with just about everything...except Vectorworks.

With laptops on the windows side, the critcial issues with Vectorworks graphics implimenation [aka quicktime] make me recommend machines like the dell precision workstation soley because the graphics drivers are updated regularly. This is not the case with more consumer oriented windows laptops.

As far as customization goes, you can certainly customize a dell precision workstation far more than a Macbook or Macbook Pro. All of them come with discreet graphics memory, a workstation class GPU and a three year Next Business Day onsite warranty (three years of depot service is an additional several hundered bucks for a mac).

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Well i can tell you i REALLY have had it with HP...at my previous office we had Dells, i didn't experience them as more stable, however like you say they were brilliant when customizing hardware and seemed to be more service minded!

Didn't know about the ATI graphics cards, if i had been in charge of buying my own workstation when i was employed i probably would have checked this in advance.....i work with VW and ArchiCAD parallel and AC actually is influenced more by the ty graphics card than VW.

I don't really feel like customizing, my employers will finance both the computer and the service so i just want the most stable and pleasurable set-up i can get.....i've basically made up my mind, just wanted it confirmed by you guys :) and i must say i've gotten great feedback!

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Guest jkelly
In my opinion, the failure to comply with an existing standard is the essence of "non-standard." If you can point to an actual standard mini display port meets, please do.

Explain to me what is different about this from how IBM released VGA and later SVGA? There was no pre-existing standard when IBM created VGA.

The Mac press has reported that it will be incorporated into a future standard (1.2), interestingly there are no sources cited or external links to Apple (let alone VESA).

Register Hardware isn't the Mac press. You should look into Dell's adoption of displayport and ask yourself why Dell won't start adopting mini displayport themselves?

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Explain to me what is different about this from how IBM released VGA and later SVGA? There was no pre-existing standard when IBM created VGA.

Hmm...justifyiing Apple's approach on the basis of what IBM did in the 80's.

When did the Emperor start wearing a grey suit?

BTW: SVGA was developed in conjunction with VESA. And the IBM PS2 is hardly a model for a successful proprietary system.

Register Hardware isn't the Mac press. You should look into Dell's adoption of displayport and ask yourself why Dell won't start adopting mini displayport themselves?

The one thing about the Register article is that it doesn't link to any sort of official announcement and every other article about the incorporation into the standard references it as the source.

I'm not saying that it's not going to happen, but there's nothing on the VESA website or Displayport.org to support the claim...which in any event is about future standards compliance rather than current compliance...which was my claim.

Dell may adopt minidisplayport or not. I certainly haven't seen anyone claim that they intend to. Have you?

Edited by brudgers

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Guest jkelly

Hmm...justifyiing Apple's approach on the basis of what IBM did in the 80's.

When did the Emperor start wearing a grey suit?

BTW: SVGA was developed in conjunction with VESA. And the IBM PS2 is hardly a model for a successful proprietary system.

I don't see the problem, I think it's a great example of a manufacturer feeding their innovation into a standard (like Apple having mini displayport integrated into VESA standards). There was a need for a small port, and they filled it. Now they're pushing it back upstream for everyone else to use, without licensing fees. That's the way it should be.

The one thing about the Register article is that it doesn't link to any sort of official announcement and every other article about the incorporation into the standard references it as the source.

I'm not saying that it's not going to happen, but there's nothing on the VESA website or Displayport.org to support the claim...which in any event is about future standards compliance rather than current compliance...which was my claim.

Dell may adopt minidisplayport or not. I certainly haven't seen anyone claim that they intend to. Have you?

There was a blog post from a Dell exec that I believe touched on it, but here's the slideshow from CES that mentions it:

http://www.bloobble.com/broadband-presentations/presentations?itemid=2090

Slide 18, "Mini-connector" is going into 1.2 of the standard.

As far as future compliance vs current compliance, are you against the draft-N wireless as well?

In the grand scheme of things, I really don't see this as the biggest deal in the world. I think we should all be more concerned with HDCP than whether you have to buy an adapter for a few bucks to connect your computer to a monitor.

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The claim was made that you could just plug a mac into peripherals without any hassle.

Obviously, if a special non-standard adaptor is required to connect with a monitor, such a claim doesn't really stand on it's own against the facts.

Curiously (I'm being charitable), my factual claim is being challenged while the false claims about PC's (for example I've hooked up at least dozen different cameras to PC's without drivers) are given a free pass.

Finally, a VESA standards compliant "mini-connector" may or may not be identical with Apple's mini displayport as currently implimented. While I'm not surprised that bloggers would misconstrue it, I'm confident that you recognize the difference.

Draft n-wireless is of course backwards compatible with existing hardware...it's not like anyone has to purchase an adaptor to connect to an existing .b or .g network. Nor do they have to purchase .n hardware to connect to a .n network.

That's of course one of the differences between an open standard and a royalty free license.

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and we all have drawers full of old parallel , serial, and SCSI cables, too.

What then is the issue ... just more junk in the closet !

this is turning out to be one of the longest most boring posts in forum history

... especially considering that our esteemed Moderator terminated it at #40 or something like that.

May be we should be debating the merits of computer software & hardware packaging .. after all... that has far greater longterm significance than a stupid little cable adaptor.

And what about the significance of changing Bluetooth standards ... ????

Gadz .. free me from this tyranny of expertise ; )

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True islandmon, however we collectively make it that way, don't forget the main issue was to get some feed back from people with experience of VW on both systems and their constructive point of view. Not a discussion about if Mac (in general) is better than PC or vice versa...which it seems to have become....

Edited by Vincent Cuclair

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Where does VW / NNA say not to use ATI?

They never said not to use them...they just pointed to issues with them.

You can find the knowledgebase article on the website.

It has been updated in the past year.

My recollection is that the previous version was a little more strongly worded regarding ATI...but I could be mistaken.

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Guest jkelly
The claim was made that you could just plug a mac into peripherals without any hassle.

Obviously, if a special non-standard adaptor is required to connect with a monitor, such a claim doesn't really stand on it's own against the facts.

In times where computers/monitors may make use of VGA, DVI, HDMI, or DisplayPort, I find it difficult to swallow that there is such a thing as a standard connector.

And you can plug many peripherals into a Mac without a hassle. Some you can't. You can't plug all peripherals into a PC without hassle either. Some things require extra hardware (firewire, for example, is relatively rare on a PC. You can get a firewire card, but you can get a mini displayport to HDMI adapter as well). This isn't the end of the world on the PC, and it's not the end of the world on the Mac.

Curiously (I'm being charitable), my factual claim is being challenged while the false claims about PC's (for example I've hooked up at least dozen different cameras to PC's without drivers) are given a free pass.

You've already challenged the idea that it's difficult to hook a camera up to a PC. I don't disagree with you. I just don't feel the need to reiterate all the things said earlier that I either agree or disagree with. I'm not attempting to imply the Mac is even the better platform here. Just that I think it's a little overboard to claim that Apple is trying to nickle and dime people over these adapters when they've released the specification and other manufacturers are releasing adapters. If they were trying to make money on the adapters they wouldn't allow third party manufacturers to make them, and they wouldn't want mini displayport to come into standard use. Because then they couldn't do what you originally claimed they were trying to do, make money selling non-standard connectors. All available evidence points to the fact that they are trying to encourage use.

Finally, a VESA standards compliant "mini-connector" may or may not be identical with Apple's mini displayport as currently implimented. While I'm not surprised that bloggers would misconstrue it, I'm confident that you recognize the difference.

Why wouldn't it be? Why would they bother to reinvent the wheel?

Draft n-wireless is of course backwards compatible with existing hardware...it's not like anyone has to purchase an adaptor to connect to an existing .b or .g network. Nor do they have to purchase .n hardware to connect to a .n network.

That's of course one of the differences between an open standard and a royalty free license.

A difference between an open standard and a royalty free license is buying adapters? How?

And yes, you do have to purchase n hardware to connect to an N network. That isn't the point though, it's not a standard yet, and yet many people are happily using it. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make linksys, belkin, or Apple bad companies.

At any rate, there's nothing further to discuss on this issue. We'll call it a difference of opinion on whether companies should be introducing standards before they are accepted into their product line, or whether they should wait.

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Just that I think it's a little overboard to claim that Apple is trying to nickle and dime people over these adapters

Of the many claims in this thread, that is one of the least overboard.

For example this statement:

Some things require extra hardware (firewire, for example, is relatively rare on a PC

While every PC doesn't have iEEE 1394, in absolute numbers I wouldn't be surprised if there are more PC's with firewire than Macs. For example, except for the lowest end machines, most HP laptops have it (my five year old zd7160 has it as well). Dell's bottom end XPS laptop has it, as does their $479 Vostro laptop and $279 Vostro desktop.

Because then they couldn't do what you originally claimed they were trying to do, make money selling non-standard connectors. All available evidence points to the fact that they are trying to encourage use

Consumer Electronics stores always try to make money on cables. Surely you've experienced that at Office Depot, Best Buy, or someplace similar. The difference is that with a standard product you can hop over to Radioshack and compare prices. Even in Manhattan, I doubt there are many places that stock mini displayport to dvi connectors.

Why wouldn't it be? Why would they bother to reinvent the wheel?

There are any number of reasons why a specific proposed configuration may not make it to a final standard, as anyone involved in a standards drafting process can attest. Proprietary specifications is just one of them. Obviously "mini connector" was used in lieu of "mini displayport" for some reason. Speculation that it was careless language is certainly no more credible than speculation that it was carefully crafted to reflect the drafting body's intent.

And yes, you do have to purchase n hardware to connect to an N network.

Your N card will work fine on B and G and your B and G cards will work fine on an N network. Maybe someone makes a wireless N router that's not backward compatible to B and N...but even Apple knows better.

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About Fireware or IEEE 1394.

From Wikipedia:

FireWire is Apple Inc.'s name for the IEEE 1394 High Speed Serial Bus. It was initiated by Apple and developed by the IEEE P1394 Working Group, largely driven by contributions from Apple, although major contributions were also made by engineers from Texas Instruments, Sony, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM, and INMOS/SGS Thomson (now STMicroelectronics).

Apple intended FireWire to be a serial replacement for the parallel SCSI (Small Computer System Interface) bus while also providing connectivity for digital audio and video equipment. Apple's development began in the late 1980s, later presented to the IEEE,[2] and was completed in 1995. As of 2007, IEEE 1394 is a composite of four documents: the original IEEE Std. 1394-1995, the IEEE Std. 1394a-2000 amendment, the IEEE Std. 1394b-2002 amendment, and the IEEE Std. 1394c-2006 amendment. On June 12, 2008, all these amendments as well as errata and some technical updates were incorporated into a superseding standard IEEE Std. 1394-2008.[3]

Sony's implementation of the system, known as "i.LINK" used a smaller connector with only the four signal circuits, omitting the two circuits which provide power to the device in favor of a separate power connector. This style was later added into the 1394a amendment.[2] This port is sometimes labeled "S100" or "S400" to indicate speed in Mbit/s.

The system is commonly used for connection of data storage devices and DV (digital video) cameras, but is also popular in industrial systems for machine vision and professional audio systems. It is preferred over the more common USB for its greater effective speed and power distribution capabilities, and because it does not need a computer host. Perhaps more importantly, FireWire makes full use of all SCSI capabilities and has high sustained data transfer rates, a feature especially important for audio and video editors. Benchmarks show that the sustained data transfer rates are higher for FireWire than for USB 2.0, especially on Apple Mac OS X with more varied results on Microsoft Windows.[4][5]

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It's looks like is a standard by Apple...

Maybe it's the same with OpenCL...

?Why not the minidisplay port? ?Because it isn't from msft?

?Why not the USB? Because...

Excelent video Ray!!!

Edited by Mr. Gog

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On the money, Ray. Monty Python comes to mind.

Odd since Yackety Sax is the theme for Benny Hill.

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-----

It's looks like is a standard by Apple...

Never let the facts get in the way of another Apple myth.

http://www.teener.com/firewire_FAQ/#Who

BTW, the page is linked from the wikipedia page.

Edit: Jkelly, you might want to read A short history of licensing a little further down the page in regard to why mini displayport may not become the mini connector.

Edited by brudgers

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Maybe I wasn't clear. Every advance in tecnology come from multiple ways, there's always and influence. It doesn't matter the source if is well implemented... if it works and solves problems.

That's why Ray's video post is excelent!

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On the money, Ray. Monty Python comes to mind.

Odd since Yackety Sax is the theme for Benny Hill.

It wasn't the music. This thread reminds me of the Dead Parrot routine and another that had something to do with paying to have an argument that devolved into an argument about what constitutes an argument.

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