BIM

[Brian Foust]

The firm I work for is trying to integrate BIM into our project. I would love to hear how other people organize there projects around BIM.

Typically we have medium size projects, mostly schools, with three to four people working on one project.

From what we understand about Vectorworks BIM, we will most likely divide a building up into several "Chunks" and one person would work on plan section and elevation for there portion of the building. Someone else (who wouldn't have to touch the BIM model) would be responsible for detailing. Does this sound like the right approach.

Also it is my understanding that only one person can be working on the BIM model. Can someone confirm that? Is Vector works working on some sort of multiple user capability? I think Revit has this capability.

Thanks

Brian

[Christiaan]

Unfortunately NNA's current form of workgroup management is file-based Workgroup References. So you have to split your project up at the get go, manage a lot of separate files and be happy with the split you made. There's currently nothing like ArchiCAD's TeamWork, which effectively allows one to sign out any Layer/Class or arbitrary area of a model and merge any changes.

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Brian,

Multiple users CAN works on a single model, when the model is distributed among several files. Files may be referenced into, or from, one, or more, conglomerate files from which overall building views are created. Users have the flexibility to create this division based on a number of factors, but is all accomplished by using the Design Layer Viewport functionality.

This type of distributed workflow is not unique and is similar to AutoCAD for Architecture, Revit, and Microstation.

Please refer to the BIM in Practice web page and the Ellicott Heights project for one example of a multi-user workflow. There are PDFs that describe the process and don't require downloading the VWX files.

[Ozzie]

So what is the difference between ArchiCAD's TeamWork and what can presently be achieved in VW?

Is the difference due to different foundational technologies or is one of the platforms in this area more advanced?

Is Vector works working on some sort of multiple user capability? I think Revit has this capability.

Thanks

Brian

Reasonable question?

[Brian Foust]

I understand referencing layers into other drawings. My firm has been doing this for a while now. However I have not heard of Design Layer Viewports. I'll look into this on Monday and see what that does.

Thanks

Brian

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Design Layer Viewports are a single step process, automating the old method of creating a Workgroup Reference (WGR), then creating a Layer Link. They are a really powerful hybrid of a WGR, Layer Link, and Symbol.

They can be "true" referencing objects, not involving the file memory overhead of old-school WGR, which imported the source file completely into the target file.

They are more powerful because they have "object" behavior and each file reference can actually have multiple DLVPs created from it for different purposes (e.g. a single unit floor plan file reference can be copied, mirrored, rotated many times, still connected to the source data). Each DLVP has a unique name. They can be copied/duplicated and their duplicate will get a new name as a result.

The user also has a range of display options within the DLVP object of the information contained within and can be changed at any time to reflect independent graphic attributes, or those of the target document, or those of the source document.

You can create multiple files and DLVP them into a single "building model" file, like Ellicott Heights, or you could create a single source file with a building model information in it and DLVP parts of it into multiple files for notation and output.

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

So what is the difference between ArchiCAD's TeamWork and what can presently be achieved in VW?

Is the difference due to different foundational technologies or is one of the platforms in this area more advanced?

Reasonable question?

"Advanced" is a loaded part of that question, Ozzie...

They are different foundational technologies. But here are the differences in the most basic sense.

ArchiCAD Teamwork is a centralized, single file database from which multiple users may "extract" a temporary editing session, of parts of the model given many different types of criteria. When the user is done editing, the information from that temporary session is reinserted into the main file. Everything, all building model data for a single project, then resides in a single file. Using Teamwork requires a deliberate decision upfront and a good deal of administrative setup.

VW Architect Workgroup Referencing (WGR) can be either a single file to multiple file system OR a multiple file feeding into a single file system. The user can decide, at any time, AND switch it at any time, if needed. Each file database is completely independent of each other, unless the user decides to merge them together. Design Layer Viewport, new with 2008, is the mechanism in which this referencing system is presented to the user, an "Object"-based system, not just an administrative based system.

In both cases, a file is a single database. With AC Teamwork, a building may remain a single database. With VW WGR, it can either be a single database, or a network of multiple databases.

[Christiaan]

Using Teamwork requires a deliberate decision upfront and a good deal of administrative setup.

You mean choosing an admin password?

The user can decide, at any time, AND switch it at any time, if needed. Each file database is completely independent of each other, unless the user decides to merge them together.

Ah yes, the infamous flexibility of VW. The user may do anything as long as they can remember all the manual procedures and where they left everything.

[Christiaan]

Probably a better description of the TeamWork process:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=130414#130414

Includes:

It is easy to switch back and forth between teamwork and solo methods. Just select "Share this Project" to go into teamwork and "Save As..." a solo project to revert to a single operator.

[Ozzie]

So it seems ArchiCAD's Team Work would require a lot of discipline and communication between Team Members.

I think I understand essentially how it works - I thought it may have been better than in fact what I understand it is

It is not a silver bullet

I am only interested in this because recently I had an opputunity to work with another VW user and so thought about how we could work on the same file together

It will be interesting to see how VW progesses in this area in the future

Point is this though as with cad drawing that I do daily lots of care and discipline is required

Multi means shared standards etc etc and making certain all adhere to the rules

Can these elements of standards and disciplines be built into systems as well as file sharing and updating which is essentially what it is

[Christiaan]

So it seems ArchiCAD's Team Work would require a lot of discipline and communication between Team Members.

But any team work requires communication, including Workgroup Referencing.

My interest is usability. Workgroup Referencing requires a lot of thought beforehand and a lot of work if you change your mind later; it requires the use of various forms of interface including a multitude of dialogue windows and a separate file system.

TeamWork, on the other hand, allows the user to choose any combination of Layer/Classes or an arbitrary part of the building by marquee, all from one simple interface.

In terms of usability WGR doesn't come close.

[Ozzie]

You are probably correct

The other end of it - standards and discipline, Standards can give us part - how about fonts by Class, Dimension Styles, what else??

Be interesting to see what is in 2010 and beyond

I am hoping for a better DTM tool, more intuitive Worksheets, some minor improvements to the 2009 Plant Tool (which of itself has been a huge leap forward) and big improvements to the Hardscape Tool

Just thinking quickly now

[Peter Eichel]

Brian,

I'm a VW's Designer user and it fits my drafting business perfectly, however, having said that I suggest you take a look at how Nemetschek's AllPlan works in regards to your question. Their website should answer all of your questions and give you something to think about.

[VincentCuclair]

As i have pointed out before, i use VW and ArchiCAD parallel, unfortunately i've only used ACs Teamwork briefly so my experience with this is limited however i know how it works .

In general ALL projects with several people involved, not only in cad programs but even when still drafting by hand, demand a lot of planning and coordination, and is always dependent on a good dialog between project members.

Apart from the advantage? of having all information in one file (easy to find), (a disadvantage would be that everyone in the teamwork group must work from the same location/server!), the only advantage over other setups i see with the single file AC teamwork setup is if members of the group often change, in this case it is perhaps somewhat easier to introduce new members to a project because they can find all information in the same file and perhaps get a faster overall understand of the project.

Otherwise i think it is more a question of taste and i'm quite sure that if a large amount of people using VW point out that they prefer the 'single file project sharing method' that VW developers will introduce this possibility in the (near) future .

[Christiaan]

a disadvantage would be that everyone in the teamwork group must work from the same location/server!

This is not my understanding. You can sign out what you need, take it home on a laptop and merge it back in the next day if you like. Just as you would with a WGR'd file.

[VincentCuclair]

Quite right.....from Graphisoft?s own page:

With ArchiCAD's innovative and award-winning TeamWork concept, teams of architects can share entire Virtual Building? models and their documentation sets across a network without hassle. TeamWork relies on the compact Virtual Building? file, so design teams can divide up parts of the building to work on, share changes with their colleagues and view what team members are doing.

Ideal for firms and projects of any size, TeamWork is simple to set up and use. All building information remains stored in ArchiCAD's object-based team project file, while teams are coordinated and controlled by an easy-to-administer management system.

When a project file is shared, team members simply 'sign in' to the project over a network and define a workspace using a combination of stories, layers, sections, details and layouts. Stories can even be further shared with the use of the marquee tool. A satellite of the project is then created on the team member's computer, eliminating dependence on a live network. At any time - by network - team members can send changes to the master project and receive changes that others have made. Team members can send and receive single elements, and can add notes and mark up elements in each other's workspace.

However this means that that part of the project is 'locked' to anyone else trying to edit it and the main file is still in one place on a certain server.....

[Christiaan]

However this means that that part of the project is 'locked' to anyone else trying to edit it and the main file is still in one place on a certain server.....

This is not the case either from my understanding. All you need is admin permissions to override it.

From my point of view this is a much better situation than WGRing because it flags up the fact that someone (potentially) intends to do some work and merge it into the project later, and therefore communication is necessarily triggered to ascertain people's intentions.

In a WGR workflow someone could take a file away and work on it while someone else merrily works on it as well without realising. Then you potentially have the difficult problem of manually merging changes from separate files.

[Ariel]

This is not the case either from my understanding. All you need is admin permissions to override it.

You can get into a very tricky situation if Archicad can really do that. In Revit, only one person can work on a set at a time, period. If you need to work on a locked portion, you have to wait for someone to release it first. Yes, this can slow down your workflow but makes more sense if you ask me.

In a WGR workflow someone could take a file away and work on it while someone else merrily works on it as well without realising. Then you potentially have the difficult problem of manually merging changes from separate files.

I'm not saying that this can't happen but I think if you're going to make changes to a copy of a referenced file you should be smart enough to know the consequences. And with 'cloud computing' increasingly being the buzzword in the tech world, I don't see this scenario worth looking into.

One advantage of WGR though is you can overlay two or more files to visually compare what the changes/differences are. You can even 'cherry pick' items you want before deleting the obsolete file/s. Can Archicad do that?

[Christiaan]

You can get into a very tricky situation if Archicad can really do that.

Care to illuminate us?

In Revit, only one person can work on a set at a time, period. If you need to work on a locked portion, you have to wait for someone to release it first. Yes, this can slow down your workflow but makes more sense if you ask me.

Sounds absolutely bonkers to me. What if somebody signs out part of the model on their laptop, goes home and gets hit by a bus? I presume someone can simply log in locally at the office using their details and release the part of the model they signed out. But that's effectively no different than the admin scenario I described above.

I'm not saying that this can't happen but I think if you're going to make changes to a copy of a referenced file you should be smart enough to know the consequences.

Once it's happened it doesn't matter what should of happened. It matters what has happened. And it's got nothing to do with smartness. It has to do with planning and management. The sign-out/sign-in scenario flags up a situation while it can still be resolved through planning and management. WGR doesn't have this flag (and I don't see how it could be incorporated) so the loss of work is more likely to happen. That's just a statistical reality.

One advantage of WGR though is you can overlay two or more files to visually compare what the changes/differences are. You can even 'cherry pick' items you want before deleting the obsolete file/s. Can Archicad do that?

My understanding is that yes, team members can send and receive single elements. I don't know why you would assume this kind of capability could only work in a dumb multi-file collaboration environment. TeamWork, by the way, also provides the capability for team members to add notes and mark up elements in each other's workspace.

Furthermore, you really don't want to be comparing co-ordination capabilities between ArchiCAD and VW and suggesting VW has the advantage. ArchiCAD absolutely wipes the floor in this regard with a feature called Visual Compare.

[VincentCuclair]

You can discuss this as long as you want but the bottom line is you need (as it has always been even when drafting by hand) a project leader/administrator with an overall view on the latest updates and what goes where in which layout, be this in a single file setup or in a single layout file reference setup or in a multi file reference file setup........if you think AC's single file system is good great, we kind of got the picture.... if you prefer WGR system fine too!

Perhaps the program that first comes with a clear administrative tool too keep track of changes and updates to every file or bit of a project (if this isn't already in place) has the advantage.

[Ariel]

You can get into a very tricky situation if Archicad can really do that.

Care to illuminate us?

You took the file home, remember? From what I understood, you said you can still do the override as long as you have admin permissions.

My understanding is that yes, team members can send and receive single elements. I don't know why you would assume this kind of capability could only work in a dumb multi-file collaboration environment. TeamWork, by the way, also provides the capability for team members to add notes and mark up elements in each other's workspace.

Furthermore, you really don't want to be comparing co-ordination capabilities between ArchiCAD and VW and suggesting VW has the advantage. ArchiCAD absolutely wipes the floor in this regard with a feature called Visual Compare.

Believe me, I have no intention of questioning Archicad's superiority. With your previous scenario in mind, I was talking about two people intentionally working on copies of the same reference file. Both for example are working on their schemes for a particular layer. What I'm describing is VW's ability to overlay both reference files. This way a team leader would have a better understanding on what changes are going to be made and catch errors before committing. Oftentimes, with a one-file system, a team members don't even realize changes had been made until after the fact.

[Christiaan]

You took the file home, remember? From what I understood, you said you can still do the override as long as you have admin permissions.

Sorry you've completely lost me. What's the "tricky situation"?

Believe me, I have no intention of questioning Archicad's superiority.

The only thing you appear to have no intention of is having an adult discussion about the merits of certain technologies. I don't think ArchiCAD is superior and nor have I said so.

With your previous scenario in mind, I was talking about two people intentionally working on copies of the same reference file. Both for example are working on their schemes for a particular layer. What I'm describing is VW's ability to overlay both reference files. This way a team leader would have a better understanding on what changes are going to be made and catch errors before committing. Oftentimes, with a one-file system, a team members don't even realize changes had been made until after the fact.

But this has nothing to do with it being a one-file system. I don't know if TeamWork has any built in comparison capability but there's nothing inherent in the concept that precludes it. While you're in some emotional VW vs AC debate I'm just interested in comparing the technology.

In any case, as I said, ArchiCAD does provide such overlay capability with Visual Compare amongst other features. See: http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/ac11/action/

[Ariel]

You took the file home, remember? From what I understood, you said you can still do the override as long as you have admin permissions.

Sorry you've completely lost me. What's the "tricky situation"?

Ok let me try again. Two people took the file home. Both used their admin permission to override. Who 'wins' when they bring back their updated files to the office?

In any case, as I said, ArchiCAD does provide such overlay capability with Visual Compare amongst other features. See: http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/ac11/action/

You're kidding about Visual Compare, right? It's just a 2d drawing overlay. Uh, I think Autocad already got us beat on that one.

I don't think ArchiCAD is superior and nor have I said so.

Yeah right.

[Christiaan]

Ok let me try again. Two people took the file home. Both used their admin permission to override. Who 'wins' when they bring back their updated files to the office?

You don't take the file home. You take a satellite file. And you can't sign out the same parts.

Maybe you need to read up on it a bit more before commenting? The trial comes with a reference guide if you're interested. Which doesn't appear to be the case.

I don't think ArchiCAD is superior and nor have I said so.

Yeah right.

Then I'm sure you'll have no problem quoting me.

[VincentCuclair]

But in essence you do lock a certain part of the file to one user even when you 'override' through an administrator you still lock that part of the file to one single user all you're doing is changing the user?!