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MBMD

Rendering quality

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Ok

So here is the first view and I'm not pleased with how it came out...

Custom Render, HDRI(lit Fog on) +18 Spots +4point lights, Curve Detail Low,

Ray traced, Sampling High, Used Anti Aliasing, 300DPI.

Render time : 1:51:00

The circlur area and balustrade did not render all to well.

What needs to be done here?

Edited by cad@sggsa

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Out of memory alerts may be because of the HDRI, which can claim a lot of memory. You are limited to about 1.5 GB of free RAM on Windows, and about 2.5 GB on the Mac, due to OS allocation of memory for 32-bit applications. In 2009 we've enabled the "\3GB" switch for Windows that will allow you to use 2.5GB like on the Mac; this is being written up in a tech note hopefully soon.

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Thanks Dave.

Will render another tomorrow.

This will affect the render time though?

MBMD.

Did you come right with your rendering?

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Out of memory alerts may be because of the HDRI, which can claim a lot of memory. You are limited to about 1.5 GB of free RAM on Windows, and about 2.5 GB on the Mac, due to OS allocation of memory for 32-bit applications. In 2009 we've enabled the "\3GB" switch for Windows that will allow you to use 2.5GB like on the Mac; this is being written up in a tech note hopefully soon.

This will only help if upgraded to 2009...

With 12.5? Getting the extra 1GB or 2GB RAM will still help me??

Did only start when I started saving to PNG exept for once before that and using HDRI's in both...

Edited by cad@sggsa

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Shouldn't affect time much, depends on how many curved surfaces are in the model.

Thanks again.

Still looking at a +/- 2h Render here... :tired:

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If you watch the memory use in Task Manager, if the usage is going over your physical RAM then more physical RAM may help the render times. It will not affect how much RAM can be used for the rendering as the OS will use the hard drive for virtual memory if there isn't enough real RAM, i.e. it will max out to about 2GB by using the hard drive if there isn't 2GB of real RAM, but the max remains 2GB either way.

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cad,

I really like the first render, 5b. The water looks fantastic. The lights seem a little bit unreal but I can see why you rendered them that way - so that the customer could see what you are proposing.

Bummer about the segmented arch in 5a. I'm sure that changing curve detail will fix the problem but my experience has been that it will add to render time.

Bummer about 2 hour render times. I'm running 2G of memory in my little first-gen macbook and it seems like more than enough with the things that I'm rendering in VW2008. As you saw from my earlier posts, my renderings are taking 30 min. +/-. I've started playing around with an evaluation copy of VW2009 & it definitely seems to use more memory than 2008 does.

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I attached a rendering of a Eye Clinic frame room which I know has all the things that make renderings slow. It has a ton of light sorces, lots of mirrors, lots of small objects, and it needs to be high resolution. This rendering took over 3 hours and is almost 9 megs. I'm looking for any way possible to speed it up and keep the quality.

2008 Vectorworks/Renderworks

Windows XP

2 Duo CPU @2.22GHz

3.48 GB RAM

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Are the eyeglass frames simplified as much as possible?

I can't see shadows, are shadows off?

The max reflections can be turned down to 2 and still show primary reflections. Multiple reflections can take time to render, but it has to be a scene that really bounces them around.

Can you show the wireframe for the model, and maybe a closeup of the frames on the rack?

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All the frame are simple extrusions colored black so they can be seen. The shadows are only turn on in a few lights. Lighting the ceiling has been a big problem. I had to make it reflect light or it will render black. How do you change the max reflections of an object?

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In Custom RW it's in the Rendering pane of the options dialog.

The Constant reflectivity shader can be used to force a ceiling to be white in the absence of indirect lighting, but it can look flat.

Maybe just use Constant on the large faces of the panels, but not on the grid or sides of the panels.

The carpet texture looks like its size might be too big.

Edited by Dave Donley

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Looks really good, MBMD. 3 hours, though, that's a drag.

Can you post your render settings? Are you rendering in a design layer or SLVP?

If you haven't already, you should make the eyeglass frame into a symbol, arrange copies of that symbol into a group around the mirror, and then make that arrangement into a symbol. Then, make anything else that you have more than one of into a symbol (like the sides of the center cabinet, banks of base cabinets, group of table & chairs, sets of track lights, etc.)

The ceiling was rendering black because no light was getting to it. Renderworks doesn't bounce light unless you use final gather. Radiosity, on the other hand, does bounce light everywhere but it is generally slower than Renderworks. I have found, however, that sometimes you can get better results in LESS time using radiosity with final gather. Take a look at these posts regarding radiosity:

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112664

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112213#Post112213

Do you have ambient light turned on? That will light the ceiling but also tends to flatten shadows. I have had better luck turning off ambient light and adding point lights with shadow casting off and falloff set to none. Put them half way between the ceiling and floor. I'd probably start with four, one on each side of the center cabinet.

Are there lights in the kick spaces of the cabinets? There seems to be a bright wash of light on the floor. I'd expect to see some soft shadows at the bases of the cabinets, not light.

I'd start playing with using final gather (in renderworks or radiosity) to get the soft shadows that will make your scene look more realistic. Start with a size of 6"? and accuracy of 10%? to see if you like the effect.

And, just so that I sound like a broken record, until I get the general lighting and materials set up, I work at a low resolution (40-72 dpi,) with shadow sampling set to low. This greatly speeds test renders and reduces frustration levels ("I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST WAITED 3 HOURS AND THE #$%*&! CEILING IS BLACK".) When I think that I have everything worked out, I turn resolution up to 240-300 dpi and shadow sampling to high.

Look forward to seeing the final product.

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The glasses and cabinets are symbols. I tried turning on the ambient light and it turned everything really dark. There are lights in the soffit of the cabinets that are cutting out the shadows on the floor. I also tired the point lights in the middle of the room but that didn't work at all with the mirrors. I'll play wiht the final gather some and see what I get.

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If you watch the memory use in Task Manager, if the usage is going over your physical RAM then more physical RAM may help the render times. It will not affect how much RAM can be used for the rendering as the OS will use the hard drive for virtual memory if there isn't enough real RAM, i.e. it will max out to about 2GB by using the hard drive if there isn't 2GB of real RAM, but the max remains 2GB either way.

Thanks Dave

Now I know that getting an extra 2GB will be a waste and rather opt just for the 1GB. Thus giving enough RAM for the OS and enough free space for render.

Thanks Bill

Will keep on trying to see what works best.

(edit)(add)

MBMD

Looking good and the guys have given you some good options to work with.

Just to add to Bill's comment of the lighting on the display cases. Try turning the light % down a bit and narrowing the cone for the light. this should give you more of a shadow as Bill said at the bottom.

By posting your render settings we will be able to see what could be changed to improve the view.

On the long render times you could try a different format(JPEG or PNG) as I found that 'tif' does take a bit long, just not to sure on quility.

Edited by cad@sggsa

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The render settings I used for that picture was

Custom RenderWorks

Geometry - Curve Detail High, use Nurbs

Lighting - use shadows, ray traced shadows, transparent shadows, High quality

Ambient Light on 10% color black

Final Gather - Off

Rendering - Use Anti-Aliasing, Use Ray Tracing Max Refractions 32 Min. 3

Resolution 300 px/in

I found TIFF files do have a little better quality.

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Hi MBMD

I would suggest as Bill did, Try with point lights to light up the area and have Ambient light off.

You'll need to play around with it and see what % setting works the best for the enviroment.

The point lights on the display units when turned down a nodge will also make a diffrence and adjusting the carpet texture to a smaller 'pile' will help visually.

Do you have all four sides closed up or is the side behind the camera open?

I would imagine a TIFF gives a better quility than JPEG, but PNG should give you an equal with a lower render time and smaller file, this also would depend on which version of VW and also the pixel width.

I use 300DPI with a 2000Pixel with(locked aspect Ratio). If I use 1200Pixel I do not get that clear image look. (another setting to work on)

Hope you come right with that.

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MBMD,

Try turning Curve Detail down to low and NURBS off. I have found that Curve Detail on high causes longer render times with little effect on quality (unless you have large curves.)

Why is your ambient light black? It seems like that wouldn't add any light to the scene.

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Bill

Wouldn't turning Curve detail to low affect the curves on the spectecals as there are a lot of them?

Only reason I did not suggest it.

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Hi Guys

I went out to the site to take some pics and to shoot an angle which would look good for the render.

I was so0o0o mistaken on many things as to it's true repensentation.

So I'm redoing and fixing the fualts so I can put the render next to the photo and make the render look better.

The fountain will be a real challange at this stage....

(edit - Add Pics)

Edited by cad@sggsa

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Max Density = 0.001

Receive shadows on

Type = Isotropic

Quility = Medium

Variation level = 1

Variation Contrast = 50%

The PanzerCad looks like a good option, but alas I only have VW12.5 where it requires VW 2008 SP3 or higher....

(edit)

As I said before on this thread, I wish to puch VW to the limits and see what it is capable of. That without using an external program.

Thanks for the tip though.

Edited by cad@sggsa

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I have made a big discovery just now...

Compare the attached....HDRISky39 5a and HDRISky39 5b

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=113855&fpart=6

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=113855&fpart=5

Notice the whitened wall on the 1st story in (a) compared to a general shading in (b). Also see att. (6)

This is due to the point lights I have placed inside the building. They cuased an intence reflectivity as if there was another external light set at 100% on the outside.

It also has an effect on my fountian's water.

Will post the two diff soon.

Why would this happen though?

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