cad@sggsa Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) Ok So here is the first view and I'm not pleased with how it came out... Custom Render, HDRI(lit Fog on) +18 Spots +4point lights, Curve Detail Low, Ray traced, Sampling High, Used Anti Aliasing, 300DPI. Render time : 1:51:00 The circlur area and balustrade did not render all to well. What needs to be done here? Edited December 4, 2008 by cad@sggsa Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 4, 2008 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hello again Carl: Turn up your curve detail to High or Very High. Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 4, 2008 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 4, 2008 Out of memory alerts may be because of the HDRI, which can claim a lot of memory. You are limited to about 1.5 GB of free RAM on Windows, and about 2.5 GB on the Mac, due to OS allocation of memory for 32-bit applications. In 2009 we've enabled the "\3GB" switch for Windows that will allow you to use 2.5GB like on the Mac; this is being written up in a tech note hopefully soon. Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Thanks Dave. Will render another tomorrow. This will affect the render time though? MBMD. Did you come right with your rendering? Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 4, 2008 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 4, 2008 Shouldn't affect time much, depends on how many curved surfaces are in the model. Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) Out of memory alerts may be because of the HDRI, which can claim a lot of memory. You are limited to about 1.5 GB of free RAM on Windows, and about 2.5 GB on the Mac, due to OS allocation of memory for 32-bit applications. In 2009 we've enabled the "\3GB" switch for Windows that will allow you to use 2.5GB like on the Mac; this is being written up in a tech note hopefully soon. This will only help if upgraded to 2009... With 12.5? Getting the extra 1GB or 2GB RAM will still help me?? Did only start when I started saving to PNG exept for once before that and using HDRI's in both... Edited December 4, 2008 by cad@sggsa Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Shouldn't affect time much, depends on how many curved surfaces are in the model. Thanks again. Still looking at a +/- 2h Render here... :tired: Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 4, 2008 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 4, 2008 If you watch the memory use in Task Manager, if the usage is going over your physical RAM then more physical RAM may help the render times. It will not affect how much RAM can be used for the rendering as the OS will use the hard drive for virtual memory if there isn't enough real RAM, i.e. it will max out to about 2GB by using the hard drive if there isn't 2GB of real RAM, but the max remains 2GB either way. Quote Link to comment
billtheia Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 cad, I really like the first render, 5b. The water looks fantastic. The lights seem a little bit unreal but I can see why you rendered them that way - so that the customer could see what you are proposing. Bummer about the segmented arch in 5a. I'm sure that changing curve detail will fix the problem but my experience has been that it will add to render time. Bummer about 2 hour render times. I'm running 2G of memory in my little first-gen macbook and it seems like more than enough with the things that I'm rendering in VW2008. As you saw from my earlier posts, my renderings are taking 30 min. +/-. I've started playing around with an evaluation copy of VW2009 & it definitely seems to use more memory than 2008 does. Quote Link to comment
MBMD Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 I attached a rendering of a Eye Clinic frame room which I know has all the things that make renderings slow. It has a ton of light sorces, lots of mirrors, lots of small objects, and it needs to be high resolution. This rendering took over 3 hours and is almost 9 megs. I'm looking for any way possible to speed it up and keep the quality. 2008 Vectorworks/Renderworks Windows XP 2 Duo CPU @2.22GHz 3.48 GB RAM Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 4, 2008 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 4, 2008 Are the eyeglass frames simplified as much as possible? I can't see shadows, are shadows off? The max reflections can be turned down to 2 and still show primary reflections. Multiple reflections can take time to render, but it has to be a scene that really bounces them around. Can you show the wireframe for the model, and maybe a closeup of the frames on the rack? Quote Link to comment
MBMD Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 All the frame are simple extrusions colored black so they can be seen. The shadows are only turn on in a few lights. Lighting the ceiling has been a big problem. I had to make it reflect light or it will render black. How do you change the max reflections of an object? Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 4, 2008 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) In Custom RW it's in the Rendering pane of the options dialog. The Constant reflectivity shader can be used to force a ceiling to be white in the absence of indirect lighting, but it can look flat. Maybe just use Constant on the large faces of the panels, but not on the grid or sides of the panels. The carpet texture looks like its size might be too big. Edited December 4, 2008 by Dave Donley Quote Link to comment
billtheia Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Looks really good, MBMD. 3 hours, though, that's a drag. Can you post your render settings? Are you rendering in a design layer or SLVP? If you haven't already, you should make the eyeglass frame into a symbol, arrange copies of that symbol into a group around the mirror, and then make that arrangement into a symbol. Then, make anything else that you have more than one of into a symbol (like the sides of the center cabinet, banks of base cabinets, group of table & chairs, sets of track lights, etc.) The ceiling was rendering black because no light was getting to it. Renderworks doesn't bounce light unless you use final gather. Radiosity, on the other hand, does bounce light everywhere but it is generally slower than Renderworks. I have found, however, that sometimes you can get better results in LESS time using radiosity with final gather. Take a look at these posts regarding radiosity: http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112664 http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112213#Post112213 Do you have ambient light turned on? That will light the ceiling but also tends to flatten shadows. I have had better luck turning off ambient light and adding point lights with shadow casting off and falloff set to none. Put them half way between the ceiling and floor. I'd probably start with four, one on each side of the center cabinet. Are there lights in the kick spaces of the cabinets? There seems to be a bright wash of light on the floor. I'd expect to see some soft shadows at the bases of the cabinets, not light. I'd start playing with using final gather (in renderworks or radiosity) to get the soft shadows that will make your scene look more realistic. Start with a size of 6"? and accuracy of 10%? to see if you like the effect. And, just so that I sound like a broken record, until I get the general lighting and materials set up, I work at a low resolution (40-72 dpi,) with shadow sampling set to low. This greatly speeds test renders and reduces frustration levels ("I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST WAITED 3 HOURS AND THE #$%*&! CEILING IS BLACK".) When I think that I have everything worked out, I turn resolution up to 240-300 dpi and shadow sampling to high. Look forward to seeing the final product. Quote Link to comment
MBMD Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 The glasses and cabinets are symbols. I tried turning on the ambient light and it turned everything really dark. There are lights in the soffit of the cabinets that are cutting out the shadows on the floor. I also tired the point lights in the middle of the room but that didn't work at all with the mirrors. I'll play wiht the final gather some and see what I get. Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) If you watch the memory use in Task Manager, if the usage is going over your physical RAM then more physical RAM may help the render times. It will not affect how much RAM can be used for the rendering as the OS will use the hard drive for virtual memory if there isn't enough real RAM, i.e. it will max out to about 2GB by using the hard drive if there isn't 2GB of real RAM, but the max remains 2GB either way. Thanks Dave Now I know that getting an extra 2GB will be a waste and rather opt just for the 1GB. Thus giving enough RAM for the OS and enough free space for render. Thanks Bill Will keep on trying to see what works best. (edit)(add) MBMD Looking good and the guys have given you some good options to work with. Just to add to Bill's comment of the lighting on the display cases. Try turning the light % down a bit and narrowing the cone for the light. this should give you more of a shadow as Bill said at the bottom. By posting your render settings we will be able to see what could be changed to improve the view. On the long render times you could try a different format(JPEG or PNG) as I found that 'tif' does take a bit long, just not to sure on quility. Edited December 5, 2008 by cad@sggsa Quote Link to comment
MBMD Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 The render settings I used for that picture was Custom RenderWorks Geometry - Curve Detail High, use Nurbs Lighting - use shadows, ray traced shadows, transparent shadows, High quality Ambient Light on 10% color black Final Gather - Off Rendering - Use Anti-Aliasing, Use Ray Tracing Max Refractions 32 Min. 3 Resolution 300 px/in I found TIFF files do have a little better quality. Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Hi MBMD I would suggest as Bill did, Try with point lights to light up the area and have Ambient light off. You'll need to play around with it and see what % setting works the best for the enviroment. The point lights on the display units when turned down a nodge will also make a diffrence and adjusting the carpet texture to a smaller 'pile' will help visually. Do you have all four sides closed up or is the side behind the camera open? I would imagine a TIFF gives a better quility than JPEG, but PNG should give you an equal with a lower render time and smaller file, this also would depend on which version of VW and also the pixel width. I use 300DPI with a 2000Pixel with(locked aspect Ratio). If I use 1200Pixel I do not get that clear image look. (another setting to work on) Hope you come right with that. Quote Link to comment
billtheia Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 MBMD, Try turning Curve Detail down to low and NURBS off. I have found that Curve Detail on high causes longer render times with little effect on quality (unless you have large curves.) Why is your ambient light black? It seems like that wouldn't add any light to the scene. Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Bill Wouldn't turning Curve detail to low affect the curves on the spectecals as there are a lot of them? Only reason I did not suggest it. Quote Link to comment
billtheia Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I suspect that it would affect the specs but they're so small I don't think that you'd notice any difference. Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 (edited) Hi Guys I went out to the site to take some pics and to shoot an angle which would look good for the render. I was so0o0o mistaken on many things as to it's true repensentation. So I'm redoing and fixing the fualts so I can put the render next to the photo and make the render look better. The fountain will be a real challange at this stage.... (edit - Add Pics) Edited December 8, 2008 by cad@sggsa Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 9, 2008 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hello again Carl: What is the lit fog quality level set to? Turning this down may help your render times significantly while the other features are sorted out. Also, have you considered using Camera Match? http://www.panzercad.com/info_cameramatch.html Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 (edited) Max Density = 0.001 Receive shadows on Type = Isotropic Quility = Medium Variation level = 1 Variation Contrast = 50% The PanzerCad looks like a good option, but alas I only have VW12.5 where it requires VW 2008 SP3 or higher.... (edit) As I said before on this thread, I wish to puch VW to the limits and see what it is capable of. That without using an external program. Thanks for the tip though. Edited December 9, 2008 by cad@sggsa Quote Link to comment
cad@sggsa Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I have made a big discovery just now... Compare the attached....HDRISky39 5a and HDRISky39 5b http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=113855&fpart=6 http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=113855&fpart=5 Notice the whitened wall on the 1st story in (a) compared to a general shading in (b). Also see att. (6) This is due to the point lights I have placed inside the building. They cuased an intence reflectivity as if there was another external light set at 100% on the outside. It also has an effect on my fountian's water. Will post the two diff soon. Why would this happen though? Quote Link to comment
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