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International base app and new distribution method needed


Christiaan

Question

With the U.S. dollar plummeting and U.S. exports becoming more lucrative I thought it might be a good time to reiterate this idea.

A fundamental problem I've found with Vectorworks over the years is the way it is produced and distributed; my understanding is that NNA produces Vectorworks for the U.S. market and then distributes this directly to U.S. customers and to international vendors who then distribute that app with localised content and changes, if you?re lucky.

The problem here is two-fold: one, international customers effectively subsidise the U.S.-centric content and, two, they end up with an app that contains within it a lot of decisions and content derived from thinking about U.S. customers, resulting in tools and content for international customers that are sometimes unintuitive or worse, that just don?t work.

We may live in an increasingly globalised world but if there's an industry that should understand the importance of one's local environment it is the architectural industry.

At the moment it seems NNA is heading down a road of including everything and the kitchen sink. "Flexibility" I think I've heard it called. While this helps in the short term it doesn't seem like a good long term solution to me, unless they're going to build localisation into the app's preferences. But this could end up being a beast.

The obvious answer, in my mind, is to change the way NNA is set up so that instead of producing Vectorworks directly for the U.S. market and distributing the result to international vendors, they produce a base application that is country neutral, while still including as many tools and as much usable content as possible out of the box, and all optimised as much as possible to be extendable and configurable (for example, to the point of being able to change the terminology used for window parts, etc.).

At this point NNA can do a few things:

1. Maybe retail this base app internationally and in the U.S. (as the new "Fundamentals"?), or maybe better not to (it may compromise neutrality), I don't know.

2. Pass it over to a new division within NNA that does localisation and distribution for the U.S. market.

3. Distribute it to international vendors who are able to localise it, working closely with those vendors to keep the base app as usable and neutral as possible.

4. Where international vendors exist that do not do localisation or only to a limited extent, NNA passes it onto yet another division within NNA that deals with localisation for international markets, before passing it onto the vendor (e.g. the UK).

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So what happens with localisation within the UK?

Is that the issue?

Seems there are issues with VW at its base level and too at the localised level and these are two different things

Example - I do not know - maybe components of say windows are different in the USA to the UK or to New Zealand

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I believe Christiaan is correct.

There's even a side effect to the current method used: The price goes up because of the extra (not usable) things in VW for some countries.

We pay almost 4.000? for VW architect+RW for one seat. This is because we pay for the translated version which is the original version + many many tools needed for our country because the ones in VW doesn't do the job for us.

If they make a neutral VW with only the tools needed for everyone and let the local distributers add the stuff needed for that country, the price will go down.

just my 2 cents. (or should I say Euros?)

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Christiaan, all PIOs have a Parameter list which can be 'modified' as required to suit local terminology. The only reason the UK distributor doesn't do this modification is because the UK users allow them to get away with not doing it. If you want local terminology you need to apply pressure to the UK distributor and demand they get off their lazy backsides and actually do it.

The same scenario exists with local content. The only reason the UK distributor gets away with not providing it is because the UK users let them get away with it. You need to apply the blowtorch to their backsides and demand that they provide you added value for the extra money they charge you.

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Mike . . . .But surely, that's what this forum is here for.

i've lived in various parts of Europe before returning home to the UK, and one thing is certain, when you speak localisition to the distributors they say "Talk to the manufacturer" . . .

Where ever they might be . . . . . . .

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The only reason the UK distributor doesn't do this modification is because the UK users allow them to get away with not doing it.

Right, so it's the user's fault.

The same scenario exists with local content. The only reason the UK distributor gets away with not providing it is because the UK users let them get away with it.

Actually UK content is provided but it's provided directly by NNA. This is partly what I was referring to when I said they're going down the road of including the kitchen sink. So other users are also subsidising UK content.

Mike, can you give any good reason why other users should subsidise U.S. and UK users?

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So what happens with localisation within the UK?

Is that the issue?

Yes, as I point out, localisation is one issue, but having the base app full of U.S.-centric tools/content is the other issue.

Example - I do not know - maybe components of say windows are different in the USA to the UK or to New Zealand

Yes, this is the case. But we all tend to use different materials as well. For example, we tend to build a lot of multi-storey concrete stairs but the stair tool doesn't really support that.

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Christiaan, apart from some of the US specific library content and Standards the program is already relatively neutral. Country distributors are free to add customisation and local content as they see fit. Some do it and some don't. Unfortunately for you the UK distributor is in the latter category. The scenario you proposed is not that different from the existing situation, so if there is no imperative for your distributor to customise and add local content now what would make them choose to do it under your scenario.

Whilst I don't believe the English language terminology differences are that difficult to deal with I am cognisant that others do find it an issue. The program already has a means of dealing with the terminology problem where it is perceived to be an issue. All it requires is the distributor to make the changes. Once again though unless there is an imperative for them to do the customisation they are unlikely to.

If you really want local customisation and content you need to convince the UK distributor that it is an imperative.

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Christiaan, apart from some of the US specific library content and Standards the program is already relatively neutral.

Well, not completely, here's a list of the pio's that are of no use here in Belgium. We have to pay for those and just can't use them because we don't build this way or because they are in a US standard measure that isn't available over here.

Campanile

Comm Device

Door

Flowchart (Node, Link)

Incandesent Fixture

Pipe Fitting

Receptacle

Slot

Stairs

Story Pole

Toilet Stall

Window

And then there are also quite a lot of things that are so rarely used over here, that it isn't worth the price.

So i think it would be better to give the local distributors a full version but without all the American pio's. The distributor can then still decide to buy some US pio's that could be used by the local customers.

BTW, there are also some users here in Belgium that can't use any of the pio's (the US or BeNeLux one) and want a standard version, but the Fundamental version is so stripped down that they can't use it either, so they would also be happy with a full version without any pio.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

There's also silly little things like the stairs in the metric library (Libraries/Objects-Metric/24_Stairs.vwx). They?re just the imperial stairs with the document?s unit settings changed to millimetres. So, for instance, a stair flight width is 914.4 mm instead of 900 mm.

Christiaan, that's no longer true. In VW_2009, all measurements have been regularized for the metric market. (That doesn't mean that everything is code-correct for every market, but it does mean that you don't get quirky fractional measurements as defaults.)

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I think OzCAD set the bar too high for what can be expected of a local reseller - they go the extra km... and then some..

I haven't seen VW2009 (the downturn means I'm not likely to), but in general the US slant in terminology and that bloody outdated measurement system you use does make the program feel foreign to us here in the UK.

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I would like to say something about this subject. I have to agree with Cristiaan and Chris D and everyone else that complaints about the USA system.How many countries uses that system???? Ok. I can understand if you say that VW is US country based program. But is it?? And please, don't even let me start about dongle versions...

I agree again about OzCad. You should see our local reseller.

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And since we are talking about policies , I have to make some decisions about how to deal with this every year version update. Sometimes I have a project that passes one year of work. This means every year I will have to transfer the files or finished one in 2008 and only start other one in 2009? How this will work?

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i'm no architect, i still use VW 11.5.1 Mechanical Design and have wanted to upgrade with every release since 12 but i have never been impressed enough to do so, people like Pat Stanford and Mike(m oz) have given me the incentive to try again, but now the upgrade to 2009 will be over ?600(more than i paid for the original package) and for a few bob more i could buy Vellum which is CAD/CAM capable out of the box.

Mech Design comes loaded with all the basic baggage to build a house or a bridge, select wall type, wall constraints most of which you see very little of in a steering hub(put your regional translation here) on an off road truck.

We are all paying for bits and pieces we don't want or need. . . . . . . .

NNA needs to streamline it's packages--Architect for ??? Architects? Spotlight for Stage Technicians, Machine Design for Engineers, etc. etc. and offer trial software for each specific package so we get an exact idea of what's on offer . . . The Good, the Bad and . . . . the Ugly( not the "one does for all instances" generic bundle that's made available) and whilst they are there, explain to any of the distributors that don't listen to the subscribers that it's they/us/we who provide their business as purchasers of VW.

i've had a pretty good relationship with CU in the UK in the past, Mr. Horne & Mr. Allen were(and i hope still are) great contacts, very helpful and always ready to listen.

Speak and you WILL be heard(in the UK anyway) :)

P.S. for Christiaan, it's the ? that's dropped now . . . . . . . :(

Edited by AndiACD
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Looks like we're all dropping. The rich get to keep their yachts and mansions, while the rest of us get cut loose.

Anyway, I digress, I take your point about streamlining the packages, however, whereas this is a management issue I think the problem I identify above is systemic, so in need of a more drastic solution.

Agree that Mr Horne appears helpful, however while UK library content has been added to VW, I've yet to hear of any suggestion that they might be prepared to alter and add plugins to suit the UK market.

I might add, too, that I sent an email to Mr Horne on 25 Sep, requesting that Velfac windows be added to the library, and haven't had a response to date.

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Yes, i've got to admit i've had very little comeback from Mr. H over the recent past. i get the impression that the work load has gone from the trickle of 3-4 years ago when i even got the "Face to Face" personal touch, to the Avalanche of present day.

"Mr. Christian, i think,"(quote from a book somewhere) you may responsible for this increase. You've got too many people thinking too much . . . . . :)

i believe that NNA have a job spot on site. i think Christiaan it's time you applied for the job as a leason technician and show the boys at NNA what is needed on the UK patch. For Architects, anyway! :)

Now if we could just find a Mechanical Engineer for that section of the "Product Direction Team" we might start to get "all packages" being "All Things" to "ALL Users"

Edited by AndiACD
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From a New Zealand point of view we are very blessed to be given a version localized by Julian of Ozcad.

His tools are really good and intuitive without this Vworks would be very clunky.

But he is also a very good program scripter and I sense he draws as well or at least understands it, because his additional tools actually are practical.

Some of the clever stuff in Vworks is clever but I never use hardly, like the human figure tool.Looks plastic always.

I believe NNA bought the camera tool of him.

If thats the case this is an example of a practical man making practical tools not a nerd thingy.

Some of the tools seem to me to reveal that the programmer does not know the construction process well?

Frustration for me is waiting for its relaese yet.

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