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laldenj

VW signaling a strategy change?

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Staying in RSA makes it hard enough to confince your company to buy the product due to the exchange rate.....about 10'000 South African Rand is a lot for a small company here.

What about wine for software!!

I also notice you are using 12.5.0, any reason for not updating to 12.5.3?

I am not granted that authority. At one stage I thought it has been upgraded to 12.5.2, but can't find any reference to it now. I have limited or no access to the server were the software is kept.

Where would I go to upgrade the version to 12.5.3 so I may notify my boss that there is an upgrade and would be advisable to do so??

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You can go to Nemetschek site, and download the 12.5.3 updater.

Get your IT manager to install it for you, it will be essential for you since you are running 12.5.0 have none of the benefits of the updates.

When you do the update the server needs to have an internet connection, so your serial number is verified and so you have a smooth install.

HTH

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As more life saving surgery is carried out by robots or whenever one boards a jetliner, these are thoughts to remember, especially "aggravated beyond words". : wink :

I suppose the modest consolation in these life-critical instances is the engineered redundancy and use of old, thoroughly tested, stable code.

OK, maybe not so much..... :o

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Unfortunately with software, you don't actually buy the software, just a license to use it. So you are tied to the license conditions, rather than any consumer friendly legal rights.

That said, software is extremely complex and often general purpose so can be used in many different ways. As has been said before, it is next to impossible to make any reasonably complex software totally bug free, especially when used in so many different ways for so many different things. So it would be unreasonable to expect a refund or fix in every case where the software did not perform exactly as the user had wished. You would however expect the developers to have a list of known bugs (you do report bugs when you find them in the correct way don't you?) and some form of priority to fix them or classify them as 'user error'.

That's all true, but what if the software calculates something wrong while the programmers intend to be it correct.

With the space tool, this tool is intended to display the area of the poly used for the space, so it should be correct because this has nothing to do with the costumer. It's just programmed wrong. So what the programmers intended is not going to be, so that's a real bug because a bug is something that doesn't work like the programmers want it to. And real bugs should be fixed.

Lot's of bug on the other hand are thing that the programmers not intended to or not implemented, so they are not real bugs but things the program can't do at the moment. At as far as I know it's reasenable to fix the real bugs in a program version.

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But NNA and CU do NOT provide customers with bugs / faults. I get plenty of emails saying how good VW is, etc but nothing about the bugs. There should be link in the dispatch email we all get several times a year. Perhaps its because the list would be too long!

Also I have informed CU about the flicker bug a long time ago and they just referred it to NNA.

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I've just been told that there are currently no plans for any more VW2008-based releases.

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That's very disappointing - considering all the bugs that v2008 had from the beginning (and still has in spite of updates to SP3).

If NNA is only going to support the latest version, they should state that in writing and switch their upgrade licensing policy to be a yearly subscription service much like ArchiCAD's 'ArchiPLUS Advantage' program.

Not that I would like that either.

Tim

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I can understand that with so many users (and user set up configurations) and so many different ways of doing things that there are going to be numerous bugs that could take forever to fix and therefore wouldnt be viable for NNA to pursue, but surely if theres bugs with the software that occur when the user operates the programme as the programmers intended then these bugs should be fixed.

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If NNA would start with a large group of Beta-testers before releasing the program, there would be a lot less ridiculous bugs.

I was in shock when i saw the bugs that accured in SP1 of VW2008... Crazy angles while drawing walls (this made drawing walls a hell for a few months!), drawing a rotated rectangle with the coordinates bar didn't fix the angle of the rectange (i couldn't use the rotated rectangle), scaling rectangles by the coordinates bar, buggy arrowheads,...

I found all these things in the first week of using VW2008... Why didn't NNA found these? Seriously, if i will buy VW2009, it would sure be untill SP3 or later, no way that i will waste again so much time because NNA released software that wasn't finnished.

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If NNA would start with a large group of Beta-testers before releasing the program, there would be a lot less ridiculous bugs.

But would there? v2008 has effectively been beta tested for an entire year by much of the user base and continues to include a circular referencing bug that has caused us weeks in delays on some of our projects.

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is that it now, are we going to have any more service packs for 2008? or are they finished with the users who still work on 2008?

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I've just been told that there are currently no plans for any more VW2008-based releases.

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It would be a shame if they would stop doing updates for software that came out only a year ago... Office2004 for mac was still updating last year (don't know if it's still going on), so that's at least 3 years after the release date (and VW is almost double as expensive as Office is).

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i could understand them releasing service packs less often after a year, but to just stop when there are still major issues with the software is wrong in my mind. I know they are busy with 2009, but it makes me feel like i have been swept under the rug

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So once we have updated to VW2009, there is no doubt going to be bugs, especially with the new 3D capabilities, Once VW2010 comes out it would be safe to say a lot of those bugs are going to go unfixed also?

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well if 2008 is anything to go by then it looks that way, i suppose it will be the usual 'well these bugs have been addressed in 2010, so upgrade to that'

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There's a rational response to this that's not in NNA's interests: sit on one version for as long as possible because at least then you learn how to work around the serious bugs. If you upgrade you know you're going to have to learn to deal with a whole set of new serious bugs that won't ever be fixed.

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There's a rational response to this that's not in NNA's interests: sit on one version for as long as possible because at least then you learn how to work around the serious bugs. If you upgrade you know you're going to have to learn to deal with a whole set of new serious bugs that won't ever be fixed.

You have hit the nail on the head, Christian.

I started using VW w/ 12.5 but quickly moved to 2008 because they released it a month after I bought 12.5. There were certainly improvements from 12.5 to 2008 but there were also things that should have been addressed (in my opinion) but weren't (eg. stair, door, and window PIOs.) There were also new features that didn't work as I expected them to (eg. inability to override class attributes in DLVPs that have external source.)

After roughly a year of using VW, I am of the opinion that NNA is driven more by marketing than by the desire to create a stable, and complete CAD system. Many of the "productivity tools" work just well enough to be included in a brochure but not quite well enough to be of real use (eg. stair tool, auto-classing, and DLVP/WGR.)

I, for one, was not thrilled when NNA announced that they would be going to a yearly release cycle. It seems to imply that requires VW users will need to BUY bug fixes if they want them. I know that NNA said that they went to this annual release schedule to allow firms and CAD managers to plan their budgets. Unfortunately, as a sole proprietor, I don't have a CAD budget.

In NNA's previous, 18 month release cycle, I think that I'd be more inclined to buy each upgrade because I'd have more time between expenditures and NNA would have more time to "finish" each version. WIth the 12 month release cycle, I'm more likely to upgrade every other time. So, NNA will get my money every 24 months rather than every 18. Now, NNA will probably make up for this by only offering upgrade pricing for the version immediately prior to the new release, so we'll just have to see what the future holds.

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christiaan

not only rational, but efficient too,

because you spend your time learning

all the tricks + quirks + work-arounds.

i worked on microstation 95 for 5 years,

VW 8.x for 6 years + now 12.x for the last

2.5 years...

it makes upgrades more expensive, but

all the accumulated new features after

these periods of time are worth the cost.

and then you need a few more years to

learn the tricks... i still feel i'm

barely scratching the surface of 12.5!

you've just got to learn to ignore

the tech frenzy of the bleeding edge

maybe 2011?

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In NNA's previous, 18 month release cycle, I think that I'd be more inclined to buy each upgrade because I'd have more time between expenditures and NNA would have more time to "finish" each version. WIth the 12 month release cycle, I'm more likely to upgrade every other time. So, NNA will get my money every 24 months rather than every 18. Now, NNA will probably make up for this by only offering upgrade pricing for the version immediately prior to the new release, so we'll just have to see what the future holds.

For an idea of upgrade costs, I'm using UK retail pricing to give indicative pricing for upgrading over 2 versions. In this case it is 12 to 2009 Landmark 1st license.

?268 IIRC VW 12 - 2008

?260 VW 2008 - 09

?528 Total

?455 VW12 - 2009

Difference ?73

?520 VW10/11 - 2009

So to stay current version, the cost is ?73 compared with skipping a generation ie 2008 plus time learning new features and working round new version bugs.

Cost New

? 999 Landmark 2008

?1110 Landmark 2009

FYI. Cost of Architect 2008/09 upgrade is ?288.89 which is more expensive than the Landmark Upgrade.

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True, but we're not so worried about learning new features and new ways of doing things, so we're all up for steadily upgrading. Everyone in our office now appreciates that the advantages usually outweigh the disadvantages in this respect.

However this is not the case with bugs like the one I mentioned above, which caused our office serious problems, especially when I was away on holiday. To know that there may well be further such bugs in v2009 and that they may well not be fixed during the release has no advantage, only disadvantage.

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In NNA's previous, 18 month release cycle, I think that I'd be more inclined to buy each upgrade because I'd have more time between expenditures and NNA would have more time to "finish" each version. WIth the 12 month release cycle, I'm more likely to upgrade every other time. So, NNA will get my money every 24 months rather than every 18. Now, NNA will probably make up for this by only offering upgrade pricing for the version immediately prior to the new release, so we'll just have to see what the future holds.

NNA looks at it differently. Under the old scheme, there were really two 9 month development cycles. 12.0 and 12.5. So they feel that they have more time to do a better job with the yearly releases.

And under the old scheme, there were many people who would still skip versions. So NNA was only getting the money every 36 months rather than 18.

All in all, I believe that NNA is doing the best they can to make a good product at a reasonable price.

The great thing is if you don't agree, you can vote with your dollars (Euros/Pounds) and go elsewhere or stick with what you have.

I am sticking with VW as it provided the best cost/benefit ratio of anything I have looked at.

And, yes I probably am biased. I have run the users group in LA for 12+ years, have done the PodCAD Podcast and the Vectortasks training for 2+ years and am a distributor, but on a very small scale, mostly as an adjunct to doing training.

Pat

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The great thing is if you don't agree, you can vote with your dollars (Euros/Pounds) and go elsewhere or stick with what you have.

Ah yes, that old chestnut. Personally I'd rather discuss it like adults and resolve the problems.

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