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Christiaan

Window PIO: support for concealed frame sash windows

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Christiaan, at a scale of 1:50 none of that detail would be visible on the printed output. Even at a scale of 1:25 it wouldn't be sufficiently visible to be useful.

Personally I think the old hand drawing dichotomy is far more sensible:

- Plans, elevations and sections showing the where and the what using diagramatic representation.

- Details showing the how with real drawn elements.

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Thanks Mike but I totally disagree. VW will get left behind if it gets caught up in such a misapplication of this idea.

This isn't about detail, it's about accuracy (see this post for what I think about detail).

We need to model what our windows actually are in order for our 3D models to look correct, for the basis of our details to be accurate, and to avoid the problems (mistakes, slowness) associated with trying to get a tool to do something it's not designed to do.

This is just one of the basics we need before we can move away from producing everything from 2D.

Christiaan, at a scale of 1:50 none of that detail would be visible on the printed output.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here Mike. The image I attached above indicates a simplified representation of a modular window in plan. The large scale detail next to it (in black) is simply there for information.

Edited by Christiaan

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Furthermore Mike, to put it a bit more crudely, it doesn't exactly bode well for VWA, when I'm discussing these things with my director, that a competing product has exactly what we need (and comes free with an annual subscription licence).

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Christiaan, The 1:50 detail you posted is showing information that could not be seen on the printed drawing:

- The Velfac two part frame you are referring to has a printed size of 1.08 mm x 2.49 mm. To be able to discern any of the detail the line weights would need to be very thin, and even then almost nothing of practical use would be discernable to the builder.

- The text size at most is 25 mm high at scale which means its printed size would be around 0.5 mm ie. 2 point text. That might be a tad difficult for the builder to read.

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Mike, try to stop fixating on this idea that this is all about detail. It's not a about detail, it's about being able to model what you're actually going to build instead of pretending what you've modelled is actually something else.

We're happy using the detail I posted at 1:50 but whether we've got the detail level correct or not is completely and utterly besides the point. The point is we need parametric support for these modular windows because:

1. Manually modelling them is not a solution (If I told my director he has to edit hybrid window symbols when he edits my file he'll laugh me out of the office and I don't blame him.)

2. If we're specifying modular window joinery we need our 3D models, plans and sections to show modular window joinery

3. We want a more accurate, dimensionally correct, basis to derive our details

Attached, by the way, is a plan, model and section of this modular joinery in ArchiCAD.

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Hi Vincent, thanks but WinDoor doesn't support modular window joinery that I can decipher. At least certainly not with the ease in which ArchiCAD's Modular Joinery (free) add-on does.

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Have you had a good look at it?

ArchiCAD's Modular Joinery (free)

But what does AC cost?

And how come some of these fan dango tools come I think from Cadimage in NZ - why doesn't AC produce them themselves

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Christiaan, i just had a peek at the Modular Joinery manual......except for the added options of sash/frame shape....it looks VERY similar to the Windoor setup...it wouldn't even surprise me if they copied Windoor, especially seeing both developers are (competing) Ozzy companies....just so you know how pleased i am, i have completely removed the native window/door tools from my tool palettes and only use Windoor at the moment.

On the other hand, good move to introduce a specific (window) producer into the program!

I've been waiting for this to happen on a much larger scale in all drafting programs, with all the larger building product developers involved. Good advertising for them, less work for us. I see that as a very important step to true BIM.

Edited by Vincent Cuclair

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It's not specific to one manufacturer's window Vincent. It's specific to modular window joinery. But I agree, I think there's definitely room for tailoring to certain objectives with separate tools rather than having one tool that tries to do everything.

Also, the Modular Joinery interface is simpler than WinDoor by an order of magnitude (and comes with ArchiCAD). I was able to start using it within minutes to create complex Velfac configurations, without touching the manual (and that's how it should be).

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Oh yeah, I missed one other reason why it's good to virtually model the building. It promotes and helps understanding of how the building goes together.

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By the way, I recently submitted a package to the UK distributor?Computers Unlimited?including a hybrid model and a window catalogue to get the ball rolling on this one. So hopefully we'll see something sooner than later.

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Great effort from Julian of OzCAD:

http://www.ozcad.com.au/common/mov/WD16ModularOverview.mov

Not as straight forward as the specialised ArchiCAD addon (and the inward opening door is a bit dodgy*) but does the trick. Now for NV to catch up, preferably with a specialised tool.

* Velfac do have inward opening doors and lights but they don't work like this.

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It's much the same for us but there other factors at play.

Planners can influence materials and products for a start. Also some contractors have a preference for certain products and materials (we have two who prefer to use Velfac windows). And, finally, we endeavour to leave window schedules and details until the contractor can tell us what windows they're using.

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