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msclark

Nemeetschheekkkk!!! AHHHHHH!!!

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I used to use Vectorworks but have been using Archicad and then Revit for the last year. I am doing a little work on an old project in Vworks and have one thing to say - GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!!! I always thought the program was full of holes and goofy methods and it's claim to be BIM was a joke, but now that I know what's out there, and that it actually works intelligently (especially Revit but Archicad too) I can't believe how weak Vectorworks is. I'm not normally interested in flaming software just for jollies but I'm having such a horrible day on Vectorworks, I was motivated to express my angst and frustration to you all. So if you are looking to purchase or upgrade software, do yourself a HUGE favor and buy a BIM package that was actually engineered and designed to be so, not a backward collection of hack tools cobbled together to create the sad mishmash of non-integration that is Vectorworks. Whew... just had to get that off my chest, back to the grind, good luck out there.

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I used to use Vectorworks

Which version did you 'used to use' ?

The title of your post is indeed provocative ... can you be just a wee bit more specific ?

but I'm having such a horrible day on Vectorworks

Okay , may be we can help you out even a little before Armageddon .

...a backward collection of hack tools cobbled together to create the sad mishmash of non-integration that is Vectorworks.
Now that's a fairly broad statement ... which 'hack tools' are you referring to ?

VW isn't perfect but it isn't a sad mishmash, either... believe me I know a sad mishmash when i use one.

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I certainly wouldn't argue that NNA have nailed BIM but we would be bonkers to ditch VectorWorks because of this.

Not only are we a long way off from having to worry about BIM, but there's no other app that can produce the quality and range of documents that we produce with VectorWorks, all in the most Mac-like interface available, and all for a reasonable price.

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Mainly 11, then 12 for a bit. - I'm quite used to Revit now and the integration between 2d and 3d views is awesome. Until you experience having every view be a "live" modeling view and they all are instantly updated and able to be simultaneously worked in, Vworks might not seem that bad, but now that I'm back to viewports, and section line instances, and updating, and stacking layers, etc, it's just ridiculous how much more functional Revit, or Archicad for that matter, is. So, while I know Vectorworks works, I think they need to put a lot more work into making it work a lot better - I keep hoping that since they bough Archicad, they could just combine all the best features from both and we'd be set. Then I could stop having to restart my mac in boot camp to work in Revit. Until then, after several projects on each platform, I'm sticking with Revit. Thanks for the offer of assistance but I know how to produce the drawings I need to produce, it's just so much less fun and productive than what I've gotten used to.

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true, the price is it's strong point - and it does have the ability to do a lot of things, it's just that most of them don't work together that well, relatively speaking.

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Mainly 11, then 12 for a bit. - I'm quite used to Revit now and the integration between 2d and 3d views is awesome.

11 and 12 are quite ancient compared to v2008 or even 12.5.

Until you experience having every view be a "live" modeling view and they all are instantly updated and able to be simultaneously worked in, Vworks might not seem that bad, but now that I'm back to viewports, and section line instances, and updating, and stacking layers, etc, it's just ridiculous how much more functional Revit, or Archicad for that matter, is.

I have experienced these aspects and they are great, functional and even more fun. I can only hope NNA have something up their sleeves in this regard. Meanwhile VectorWorks continues to make us money.

true, the price is it's strong point - and it does have the ability to do a lot of things, it's just that most of them don't work together that well, relatively speaking.

This is true, although I'm also talking about 2D presentation work and things like that. No other app beats it for flexibility (which can be a bad thing too, as you point out).

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As a relative newcomer to VW, let me say that I have had a fair amount of frustration with this software. Not only is it unintuitive, but there are software practices that are simply ignored (I have been teaching Adobe and Macromedia products for 12 years, so I understand software and the learning process).

What things suck? The stair PIO. Doors and windows could be implemented better. The necessity to save views and actions, like a web browser. I have been caught numerous times switching (back) to a tool only to discover that the last time I used it, I was in Isometric view, and that's not what I want. That's simply idiotic, IMHO. It's a drawing tool, not a web browser or an animation tool. I fail to see the need for timeline-based interactivity with the drawing/selection/usability tools in a BIM-like software. Emphasis on "I fail to see". If anyone can prove to me the value of marrying a screen view to a tool as basic as the hand tool or the selection tool, I'm all ears. It drives me nuts. I'm very much in favor of saving views, but I don't think they should be "attached" to a tool (so that when you switch to a certain tool, you go back to a 3D or 2D view, depending on what you were doing the last time you used the tool. This is the way my VW is working...if there's a workaround, somebody please help!). And these are the little things that can sour the favor of a piece of software.

More than anything, I think NNA has dropped the ball on proper instruction and good manuals. I get frustrated when I'm in the throes of trying to get a drawing done, and come up on something that I don't understand or isn't working the way I think it should or could, and then absolutely no reference ANYWHERE in the documentation explaining what it is and why/how I use it. I'm teachable, but the info has to be there, and it's not. Want a rounded wall? Good luck finding info in the documentation about how to properly use that feature.

An example: recently I was placing simple doors in a building. I did not want to yet go through the process of defining doors because I was merely sketching. Somehow the Door Tool was, by default, placing doors with sidelights. I just wanted simple swing doors, nothing fancy. Placeholders, really. But, with every door I placed, I had to go in and individually edit the door to remove the sidelights. I don't think it's too much to expect that the Door Tool, with its little blue door icon (sans sidelights, mind you) would place a basic swing door. So, naturally I searched the documentation to find where I could edit the default preferences for doors using the Door Tool. Couldn't find it. Placed more doors, got frustrated, wasted probably about an hour and a half screwing around with the doors before I posted to this board and got an answer (sort of) the following day. That cost me time, broke my flow of drawing and design, and it is so basic that it should be in the documentation. I left the session that afternoon feeling as though the software had failed me. I was uneasy about my design and the work I had done. Granted, that's my problem, and I'll work it out on the couch later with my analyst, but the point is, it's the little things that make or break one's impression about software.

Software should become somewhat invisible in the design process. Good software is intuitive from the moment the new user launches it. Tools should work in the way that we expect them to work, and I'm talking about basic expectations, not unrealistic ones. Good software makes us feel as though it "knows" what we want to do next after a certain operation, and the tools are available and function in that way. A simple interaction like this can make us say "Cool" and opens up the mind. Frustrating software makes us say "#%*!...WTF?!!" and we feel stymied and our productivity suffers. Look at Photoshop, for example. I've seen total Luddites in my classes launch that software and be working away creating great stuff in a very short time with very little instruction or guidance. Sure, it may not be as complex as BIM software, but that's not the point. The more complex a piece of software is, the more emphasis should be placed upon its interaction and ease of use. One cannot dream and draw and design when one is in a state of frustration because the software has just cost an hour of time searching for an answer that should be addressed in the documentation.

Now, it's easy to rant on frustrations, but I have found that the software does do stuff pretty well, albeit in a totally non-designer/architect manner. Clearly these guys never sat down to draw, or if they did, all that was tossed out the window. But, I am getting it slowly. It takes a long time, and because of the already-discovered problems, I approach my drawing in this software with trepidation. I'm afraid of developing a workflow only to discover much later that I get tripped up by yet another oversight in the software.

This software needs a redesign and a rethinking, from an architectural point of view, not a programmer's point of view, and that opinion has been voiced by many in these forums. It would be valuable to see exactly what things users really like, and what things are useless, frustrating or counter-productive. It would be valuable to have that in one place, and then have that info provided to the developers, or better yet; to us users as a primer on how to navigate the more frustrating canyons (anyone want to tackle that?).

It would also be fascinating to see pigs fly. But I'm not counting on it.

charlie

Edited by mr. iagea

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My autocad-based office is currently in the transition phase to Revit. So for the past four months I've been able to evaluate and use it practically everyday in real projects. From Day One, I have also been listing down all the "pros" and "cons" Revit features that I encounter. As a long-time VW user, I am not blown away and wouldn't recommend others to make the switch.

Some items which you'll find frustrating in Revit:

- 'dumber' window and door creation tools

- poorly implemented saved views options

- no built-in spreadsheet

- no layers

- no align/distribute command

- can't combine text formats in a single text object

- can't edit imported dwg file

- no add solids

- no intersect solids

- no modeless object info palette (this is killer IMHO)

- no rectangle object

- can't edit circle by diameter

- no zoom to selection

- can't use arrow keys to pan view

- can't use numeric keypad for standard 3d views

- can't draw circle by diameter

- can't draw circle from 3 lines

- no rotated rectangle

- can't create hatch pattern; use a text editor or another program

- no area tool

- no backward compatibility to previous versions

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...As a long-time VW user, I am not blown away and wouldn't recommend others to make the switch...

Why, then, is your office making the switch?

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Probably because the decision makers are rarely the doers at the 'blunt end'. Therefore they are easily seduced by what appears to be sexy.

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I'm relatively new and was hired as Project Architect late last year. And being the only 3d renderer around, I get to choose my own software --- hence I'm able to use the latest versions of VW, Autocad, and Revit at work.

Yes, headshaking is getting to be a habit these days.

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I have been to a few architecture career fairs at my local university

and one of the questions I always ask at each booth is what software they use.

Almost every one of them say they use Autocad, but are thinking about or actively

transitioning to Revit. Everyone says they use Sketch-up.

The few who have said they use VectorWorks also said they LOVE IT

and don't plan on switching...

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Not having used Revit I'm not qualified to make a comparison. I have used Autocad, Solidworks, Turbocad, Pro-E, various renderers and of course Photoshop etc.

What makes VW attractive is the breadth of it's abilities; it's certainly flawed in that some tools do not work as well as they should and it's still, even in v2008, not quick once you get onto anything half complex. But. It does cover a lot of ground. Other individual programs do specialised work better but can't do as many things.

Some things from other posts

Mainly 11, then 12 for a bit.

As Christiaan notes, these are now very old hat in terms of functionality, stability and speed. Version 12 I found particularly irritating but 2008 is a significant step forward.

As a relative newcomer to VW, let me say that I have had a fair amount of frustration with this software. Not only is it unintuitive, but there are software practices that are simply ignored (I have been teaching Adobe and Macromedia products for 12 years, so I understand software and the learning process)

I suppose since I've been using versions of VW for years it would be difficult to say that a new user would find it unintuitive but I would suggest that we all find aspects of the software that are new and in my case they seem to consistently work pretty much the way I would expect. Complex? Yes, but that adjustability is one of the things that makes it flexible. Illogical? Not in my experience.

If anyone can prove to me the value of marrying a screen view to a tool as basic as the hand tool or the selection tool, I'm all ears. It drives me nuts.

Yes, this would drive me nuts too. Dosen't happen to me though...

More than anything, I think NNA has dropped the ball on proper instruction and good manuals

Yes, that's beginning to be true. I don't think they've been significantly rewritten since V10 and that was a long time ago.

I don't think it's too much to expect that the Door Tool, with its little blue door icon (sans sidelights, mind you) would place a basic swing door. So, naturally I searched the documentation to find where I could edit the default preferences for doors using the Door Tool. Couldn't find it. Placed more doors, got frustrated, wasted probably about an hour and a half screwing around with the doors before I posted to this board and got an answer (sort of) the following day.

Hmm. Once I place a door using the door tool, subsequent doors follow the pattern I chose for the first one until I change the one one I'm placing and then subsequent ones follow that. Obviously didn't happen for you. Tool "stickiness" certainly needs to be improved but in this case, on my system, it does work.

his software needs a redesign and a rethinking, from an architectural point of view, not a programmer's point of view, and that opinion has been voiced by many in these forums. It would be valuable to see exactly what things users really like, and what things are useless, frustrating or counter-productive. It would be valuable to have that in one place, and then have that info provided to the developers, or better yet; to us users as a primer on how to navigate the more frustrating canyons (anyone want to tackle that?).

A rethink & rebuild bottom-up would improve matters greatly, no question. As to the rest, most of that is in these forums, a good guide to the canyons can be found with Jonathan Pickup's manuals.

The few who have said they use VectorWorks also said they LOVE IT

and don't plan on switching...

Whenever I have been to another bit of software it is nice to be back in VW . It's no where near perfect but in my experience it's the package I would buy again.

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I don't think it's too much to expect that the Door Tool, with its little blue door icon (sans sidelights, mind you) would place a basic swing door. So, naturally I searched the documentation to find where I could edit the default preferences for doors using the Door Tool. Couldn't find it. Placed more doors, got frustrated, wasted probably about an hour and a half screwing around with the doors before I posted to this board and got an answer (sort of) the following day.

Hmm. Once I place a door using the door tool, subsequent doors follow the pattern I chose for the first one until I change the one one I'm placing and then subsequent ones follow that. Obviously didn't happen for you. Tool "stickiness" certainly needs to be improved but in this case, on my system, it does work.

It just depend on the way you use VW You can change the settings in the mode bare BEFORE placing the ojbects. Or you can save the object through a symbol with set preferences.

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I thought I should address these points, in case anyone is following this thread in the interest of software comparison. I've quoted his post below and will address each point in parentheses below his points. I find that many of these comparison posts are hampered by comparisons made by people that might not know how to use the software they are referring too, as is the case with Ariel's post. BY the same token, mr. iagea is expressing frustrations that may largely go away as he learns the software but I would generally agree with him. I use all of the adobe products, sketchup, all of the major cad platforms except microstation, maya, 3d studio, artlantis, etc. and I have found Vectorworks to have one of the poorest organizations of toolsets and workflows out there. Anyhow, on with the "frustrations".

My autocad-based office is currently in the transition phase to Revit. So for the past four months I've been able to evaluate and use it practically everyday in real projects. From Day One, I have also been listing down all the "pros" and "cons" Revit features that I encounter. As a long-time VW user, I am not blown away and wouldn't recommend others to make the switch.

Some items which you'll find frustrating in Revit:

- 'dumber' window and door creation tools

((I don't know what this means exactly, but I do know this - In Revit you can model anything you want, you are not restricted by the settings available in the door or window dialogue. This is actually what made me switch to Revit, I had a project with some very unusual window openings in thick walls and was not able to model them easily in Vworks or Archicad. In Revit, I have no constraints, no GDL programming, no messing w/ workarounds, I just model the door or window I want (it's a completely parametric abject) and then keep moving. It looks right in section, elevation, and plan, and contain all the parametrics I want to assign to it.

In conclusion, I would emphatically say that the Revit window and door creation tools are smarter by an order of magnitude.))

- poorly implemented saved views options

((This is very different because Revit does not use layers, it uses a system of classes for all of the elements that go into a building and a set of drawings and allows for user created sub classes. Each view or drawing you create can have objects or classes hidden as well as have their attributes overridden. I find this system to be very intuitive and simple to set up my drawings to look the way I want them. However, if you are coming from a layer based system like Vworks or Autocad, it might be confusing at first.))

- no built-in spreadsheet

((It does have a great scheduling system which allows for virtually any parameter of any object to be scheduled and you can add some user created fields. So far, I haven't ever had to rely on an outside spread sheet for my schedules.)

- no layers

(( see above))

- no align/distribute command

((It has a great align command with the ability to lock alignments so objects move together, much easier and more advanced than Vworks. It also has parametric arrays / distributions.))

- can't combine text formats in a single text object

((The text tools can be a bit limiting but it has not ben a big deal in producing drawings so far))

- can't edit imported dwg file

((Not true - very easily editable.))

- no add solids

((Also not true - just a different working method than vectorworks...)

- no intersect solids

((Also not true - just a different working method than vectorworks...)

- no modeless object info palette (this is killer IMHO)

((Not sure what the issue is here...))

- no rectangle object

((True, a rectangle as such does not exist but with the parametric working dimensions between objects, I actually am faster drafting in Revit. You can also usr a filled region like a rectangle or polygon. Once again, just a different way of doing things.))

- can't edit circle by diameter

((Are you kidding......))

- no zoom to selection

((Not sure about this one.))

- can't use arrow keys to pan view

((I imagine most of us use a 3 button mouse, making this a moot point.))

- can't use numeric keypad for standard 3d views

((Check out the view cube.))

- can't draw circle by diameter

- can't draw circle from 3 lines

- no rotated rectangle

((Not sure why these are issues, I have had no problem drafting anything I need, I suppose if you are set on a certain way of drafting and have no interest in advanced BIM than you should stick with Vectorworks.))

- can't create hatch pattern; use a text editor or another program

((This is a valid complaint, but I just import the hatches I need and have not had a problem))

- no area tool

((Not sure what this means, there are a few different ways to define areas...))

- no backward compatibility to previous versions.

((Autodesk strikes again - this is true and could be a pain if you are spreading work around to subs, etc.))

In conclusion to this extremely long post, Most of his points above have to do with drafting, which I think Vworks is generally quite good at. However, if you are interested in a tight and detailed BIM model and a fully integrated set of drawings, I maintain that there is no real comparison, and the drafting that I do to flesh out the drawing set I have had no problems accomplishing in Revit and in many ways, I have even come to prefer it because of the parametrics.

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Hmm. Once I place a door using the door tool, subsequent doors follow the pattern I chose for the first one until I change the one one I'm placing and then subsequent ones follow that. Obviously didn't happen for you. Tool "stickiness" certainly needs to be improved but in this case, on my system, it does work.

It just depend on the way you use VW You can change the settings in the mode bare BEFORE placing the ojbects. Or you can save the object through a symbol with set preferences.

Yes, let me clarify. The door tool does now work according to "stickyness", and now that I have found that information (a day and some hours of frustrating work later), I understand how it works and have remedied the situation. My point was that NOWHERE in the documentation is it indicated that tools would possess this stickiness, nor how to edit that preference (or create a good default to begin with).

THAT'S my frustration. I see that this software is powerful and, once mastered, can be made to produce some quality work, and I am learning it. However, I stand by my previous comment:

Complex software should be made to be intuitive, and in the inevitable situations where confusing, complex or ostensibly difficult operations and procedures are in place or will be encountered, clear and complete instructions should be offered in the accompanying documentation. I find VW and NNA to be severely lacking in this critical aspect of software development.

Edited by mr. iagea

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- 'dumber' window and door creation tools

((I don't know what this means exactly, but I do know this - In Revit you can model anything you want, you are not restricted by the settings available in the door or window dialogue. This is actually what made me switch to Revit, I had a project with some very unusual window openings in thick walls and was not able to model them easily in Vworks or Archicad. In Revit, I have no constraints, no GDL programming, no messing w/ workarounds, I just model the door or window I want (it's a completely parametric abject) and then keep moving. It looks right in section, elevation, and plan, and contain all the parametrics I want to assign to it.

In conclusion, I would emphatically say that the Revit window and door creation tools are smarter by an order of magnitude.))

Can you please show us the 'unusual window openings' you're having problems with? My problem with revit doors and windows is it's a pain to edit and modify them. In VW, you always have the OIP. Try adding a transom or sidelite to a door in revit then tell me if it's faster.

- poorly implemented saved views options

((This is very different because Revit does not use layers, it uses a system of classes for all of the elements that go into a building and a set of drawings and allows for user created sub classes. Each view or drawing you create can have objects or classes hidden as well as have their attributes overridden. I find this system to be very intuitive and simple to set up my drawings to look the way I want them. However, if you are coming from a layer based system like Vworks or Autocad, it might be confusing at first.))

Example: you want to zoom in the kitchen area of a house plan and save that view. In revit you can only save the object visibilities not the view extents.

- no built-in spreadsheet

((It does have a great scheduling system which allows for virtually any parameter of any object to be scheduled and you can add some user created fields. So far, I haven't ever had to rely on an outside spread sheet for my schedules.)

That's right --- revit users always confuse schedules with spreadsheets. (sigh.)

- no layers

(( see above))

And this is the reason why revit users 'prepare' autocad files before importing them.

- no align/distribute command

((It has a great align command with the ability to lock alignments so objects move together, much easier and more advanced than Vworks. It also has parametric arrays / distributions.))

I would suggest that you review how the align/distribute command works in VW. I'm not talking about arrays. I'm referring to how to control the spacing and alignments of different types of objects.

- can't edit imported dwg file

((Not true - very easily editable.))

Ok I have to admit I may be wrong here. You have to 'explode' it first though. But with revit's limited 2d tools, please take out 'very easily' from your comment.

- no add solids

((Also not true - just a different working method than vectorworks...)

please elaborate.

- no intersect solids

((Also not true - just a different working method than vectorworks...)

please elaborate.

- no modeless object info palette (this is killer IMHO)

((Not sure what the issue is here...))

Example: modify a parametric object dimensions (ie. door width). Pop-up dialogue box vs. OIP. Tell me which is more intuitive.

- no rectangle object

((True, a rectangle as such does not exist but with the parametric working dimensions between objects, I actually am faster drafting in Revit. You can also usr a filled region like a rectangle or polygon. Once again, just a different way of doing things.))

replace 'different' with 'slower'.

- can't edit circle by diameter

((Are you kidding......))

I may be missing something but I can only edit a circle by its radius. Please don't tell me that you created a parametric circle just prove your point.

- can't use arrow keys to pan view

((I imagine most of us use a 3 button mouse, making this a moot point.))

frustrating nonetheless for me. tapping on the arrow keys is way more faster than click-dragging 6 screens away.

- can't use numeric keypad for standard 3d views

((Check out the view cube.))

hard to use and s-l-o-w-e-r.

- no area tool

((Not sure what this means, there are a few different ways to define areas...))

painful workarounds. Why can't I just draw a polygon in revit and get the area?

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Frankly someone needs a reality check.

Hit "HELP" in the upper right of the VW Menu Bar.

(I have it Bookmarked in my web-browser too.)

Hit "SEARCH," type "door," the first link tells

you everything you need to know. Three clicks.

Yes, always room for improved documentation, but

take your frustrations to the Help files, or call

NNA Technical Support, not as an excuse to go

postal on the Tech Forums. Please.

picture26kc6.png

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Nice :grin: :D

Frankly someone needs a reality check.

Hit "HELP" in the upper right of the VW Menu Bar.

(I have it Bookmarked in my web-browser too.)

Hit "SEARCH," type "door," the first link tells

you everything you need to know. Three clicks.

Yes, always room for improved documentation, but

take your frustrations to the Help files, or call

NNA Technical Support, not as an excuse to go

postal on the Tech Forums. Please.

picture26kc6.png

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Did your office undertake an analysis of the options, prior to implementation and a trial run of those options, sounds like they didnt?

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Hi.

Thanks for the information. That's helpful.

Thanks also for the "going postal" and "reality check" insults. Those are ESPECIALLY helpful to a newcomer to the software.

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No problem.

I guess I was just venting my frustration

after having read your entire rant half-way down this thread.

All you have to do is ask. Complaining in ignorance is annoying.

(Not to offend or anything, of course).

Normally I just enjoy being part of the community learning and

asking questions, responding when I feel I can help.

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I have worked in an office that uses AutoCad, and some of the staff was making the transition to Revit (brought on by the relentless persuasion of one of those AutoDesk resellers). But when I brought in my copy of VW Architect, installed it on the office Mac, and used it to make cut and fill calculations on the digital site model that matched perfectly the estimates made by earth moving contractors, the excitement about Revit soon vanished. I continued to use VWA for site modeling since then (it saved the client lots of earth moving), and Revit has nothing comparable to it. There are Revit users on the message boards who would kill for the site modifier tools that VW Architect (and Landmark) has.

Also, the local engineers all use AutoCad for their plans, and Revit is not the best at exporting to DWG, since it has no layer system and exports everything to one layer. (Autodesk!!!! AHHHHHHH!!!)

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Sounds to me like proper professional training may be required here. Sometimes trying to figure out software on your own can lead to frustration and loss of valuable billable time. As someone who still continues to keep his AutoCAD skills up to date and has tried everything including Revit, There is no way way to avoid frustration if you rely on manuals only. Sketchup is probably the most intuitive CAD related software out there and yet demand for professional training is good (Ask the guys at School ). Yes you can figure it out on your own , but you can figure it out quicker if you solicit advise from experienced users on this board,tech support or a trainer.

Here are a couple of good sources of training depending on your location i.e NNA PLS training, Resolve Software, Vectortask , Archoncad and my own recently launched training V-construct in New York City.

Edited by ola_ola

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