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nicoloco

VW08 Workgroup References Unstable - Location Problems

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We are currently having unexpected and seemingly random problems with workgroup referencing in VW08 (SP2 Build 83388) on Intel Macs.

1. The main issue seems to be that when you change the angle of rotation and then save the file, open re-opening the WRs have moved to seemingly random locations (even if they were locked). Return the drawing to 0 degrees and re-save and open and they are back in the correct OS/GPS locations.

We have however had one occasion when the references returned to the right place but the LIVE data in the file moved!

2. Some references appear to be in different locations to their actual location. eg. if you cut and paste the data between files they will come in in the right place, but reference the same data from the same file and it will have moved.

Can't make any sense out of either of the two problems above and makes me suspect that the recent SP2 Update hasn't ironed out the listed known problems which it claimed to solve; namely...

* Updating referenced objects from a source drawing which uses rotated plan can leave the objects placed incorrectly in the destination document.

* Using multiple levels of referencing without saving cache to disk can cause complex drawings to become corrupted and behave strangely.

Any thoughts appreciated...even if just to know that this is happening to someone else's office and it's not just our imagination!

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Think I have figured it out...

Saved two test files.

1. Viewports of 3 references in the same place on top of one another. Saved with rotated plan and 'save referenced cache to disk' CHECKED. Re-open file and references are all in the same place and file is stable.

2. Same file but saved in rotated plan with 'save referenced cache to disk' UNCHECKED. Re-open file and references are artfully arranged in seemingly random positions and the file is unstable.

I had previously tried all of these other control tests:

? locating the information at the origin instead of at OS coordinates - no difference

? testing the process with other project data

? testing the process with each of the 3 references omitted

So I am therefore pretty certain that there is a bug which affects complex drawings (10k+ objects - ie. any relatively detailed GA architectural building plan or consultants drawing).

I would summarise the bug as such:

If a complex drawing is saved in rotated plan view without 'saving the cache to disk' then, upon reopening, the references behave strangely, appear in random locations and the drawing becomes corrupt. This is sometimes the case when a file is rotated and then returned to zero degrees before saving.

Problem is, the cached file is 7Mb, and the uncached file is 344k, so you can see the benefit of the uncached referencing for complex real-world referencing.

Has anyone else seen this problem or can anyone try and recreate?

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I have had this problem once before. My original file was VW12.5, which I converted into VW2008 maybe that has something to do with it? I called tech support but could not resolve the easily. Your best bet is to open a new VW2008 file and copy and paste the objects from the corrupt file into the new file. Its a big pain, but i haven't had anymore problems.

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I have come across this once to, one file moved 75,000m to the left and 87,000m down the page. Strange thing though even the back ups through out the day went wacko, even though we didn't encounter the problem till the end of the day, odd.

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I have had this problem two separate times. The first was in a set of drawings that all started as VW2008 drawings. If a referenced drawing was last saved with a rotated view (90, 270, etc.), its referenced viewport would find a new seemingly random home (origin/location) in any file that referenced it. The viewport would continue moving/relocating in the design layer (and consequently the sheet layer as well) as you navigated through the referencing file. For example, if the viewport was originally located at (0,0) in the design layer it would be in a new location (132978.503, 283481.654) upon opening. Setting the origin back to (0,0) manually in the Obj Info palette would move it to another location (not the referencing file's origin).

The second time it happened in the same way. Both times were with "save referenced cache to disk" CHECKED. Updating the reference would always cause the viewport to jump to yet another seemingly random location.

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I have had this happen on a number of occasions. What I have been doing to correct this is to change the origin in the target file. I double click on the crosshair at the top left intersection of the screen rulers. On the menu that pops up, I select "Set origin to drawing center". I then update the referenced viewport.

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We have this problem. It?s a nightmare. We have had to result to enforcing a strict protocol of returning our plan rotation to zero before anyone saves (not exactly convenient). In any one project, all our files are referenced into each other, and then all the layouts sheets are in separate files with that geometry referenced in to them. A number of people work on a project at a time. It only takes one bad save, and it takes a long time to locate and iron out the problem.

It?s very annoying that VW release software with such a restrictive bug. This has cost us a lot of time and money which obviously we cannot charge to our clients. I?ve contacted VW tech support who are normally very helpful, but on this point I get no reply to my emails. Sorry to be so negative, but now the 2008 upgrade has now cost us a lot more than the list price.

Rob (UK)

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Everyone,

The issue you are discussing has been brought to our attention and is being addressed. Please be assured that extraordinary efforts are being made by the engineering staff and beta testers to reconcile this behavior.

As always, it is important that our users understand the significance of submitting bugs via...

http://www.nemetschek.net/support/bugsubmit.php

... immediately, when problems are discovered. While this forum is useful and important to provide assistance in many ways, the official bug submittal channel insures that high-level issues/problems get in front of the Quality Assurance and engineering staff, in a timely manner. Don't be shy. In the end it benefits you and everyone else.

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Thanks for the update and the effort. We are still experiencing the same behaviour and, as a previous poster noted, is costing us considerable man hours re-referencing all our drawings.

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Aaarrrgh.....I always forget about Bug submit. I've submitted this previously through the Tech support contact page. I just sent them another one before I remembered this thread.

I submitted this to Tech support, but posting here anyway to see if what is happening in my drawings is unusual, beyond plans moving all over the place. In drawing 'B' I create a DLVP that references drawing 'A'. Path is relative, not saving cache to disk. Looking in the Navigation palette of drawing 'B', I see drawing 'A' is referenced. When I open drawings 'A' and look in the Navigation palette, drawing 'B' is showing as referenced, and it should not. Isn't this some kind of circular reference? Is this how references with DLVP works? The problem with my plans moving around in the DLVP seems to be related to the drawing origins of the two separate files. If both drawings have different origins, would they affect the other file as they are opened?

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Any indication on timescale for this fix?

In the meantime I have a fundamental question regarding the 'rotate plan' function in Architect 2008.

It seems that when you use the 'rotate plan' function it changes the absolute coordinates of the drawing. ie. say you have a file an unrotated plan and you copy an object into the memory...then you use the 'rotate plan' view and change the angle of the drawing...when you 'Paste in Place', the object will come in relative to the new coordinates ie. not absolutely where it was.

Isn't this what is happening to references when the source file is saved in rotated plan mode...ie. the coordinates in the source file have changed so the destination location will change? Seems like a fairly fundamental issue to me, which makes the new rotated plan function fairly useless in real life. Basically the 'rotate plan' function is little more than a temporary way to change the origin and orientation of the drawing.

Ideally the program would be able to keep absolute locations intact when rotating the plan...is this going to be possible or will we have to ban either the 'rotate plan' or referencing functions in our office? (ironically the main reasons for upgrading to 2008 in the first place, and the only reason for paying the extra money for Architect...)

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This is really beginning to stress our office out.

Referenced files are ending up all over the place.

Any Joy with a fix VW people!!!

paul

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Deep breath...

OK.

First, Launch VW. From the menu select "About VectorWorks". Then select the "Check for Updates" button. Get updated.

Second, Steve. It sounds like you have a circular reference. VW DOES NOT automatically create circular references. Somewhere "A" was referenced into "B" and then "B" into "A". Re-start the setup by deleting all references from both files. Save and quit VW. Then set the references back up.

Third,

Basically the 'rotate plan' function is little more than a temporary way to change the origin and orientation of the drawing.

You are right. The "rotate plan" functionality is meant to be a temporary orientation and drawing feature. IT IS NOT a "AutoCAD-like" UCS (User Coordinate System). It was never meant to be that. It was to help draw/model parts of a building that were not orthogonal to each other.

The point is that your source files should be saved/closed in their "true"/absolute orientation for best results, if they are going to be referenced into other files. Then, the DVLPs created from these references, in the other file can be rotated as needed. That is the advantage of DLVPs, they can be rotated/mirrored/copied, just like any other object. Don't rotate to true orientation in the source file, do it in the file containing the references.

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Second, Steve. It sounds like you have a circular reference. VW DOES NOT automatically create circular references. Somewhere "A" was referenced into "B" and then "B" into "A"...

Turns out that someone came behind me and created the other reference, creating the circular reference. I've fixed that but still end up chasing the plan around at least once a week. I don't rotate the plans, they just move in the DLVP out of the blue and for no apparent reason. Hopefully the latest service pack will help. I think DLVPs are very useful and I hope everything gets resolved.

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Jeffrey. Thanks for the efforts. Will update and see if this fixes the odd behaviour.

The point is that your source files should be saved/closed in their "true"/absolute orientation for best results, if they are going to be referenced into other files.

When you say 'best results' do you mean the source files must always be saved in true/absolute orientation otherwise the relative orientation will have been changed (and therefore the drawing will reference into a different place? In which case, why allow users to save the drawings in rotated plan view? Why not add an option which automatically rotate the plan back to true/absolute when saving? ie. getting rid of the possibility of 'human error', which WILL inevitably happen (especially in a big team) and has already cost us time and lots of arguing with one another. The best we have come up with recently is teaching users to hit Apple-5 then Apple-S...

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I seem to be encountering similar issues, only I never rotated the referenced plan. Instead, I rotated the DLVP as Jeffrey had suggested, and then applied a VP crop as well (I'm referencing a site plan for a 5-lot development into the drawings for one of the houses). What's strange is that, on several occasions now, the information in the DLVP has moved (never touched the original file), but the crop has stayed in the same place, so that initially it looked as though the reference had disappeared, since the the crop was now over a blank spot in the referenced file. Aggravating indeed! Any way to prevent this from happening in the future?

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I experimented a bit further, and it seems that if I change the origin in either the source file or the target file, the location of the referenced objects in the DLVP will change. Odd that the crop stays in the same place. It's also rather silly that if you wanted to set a different origin in order to make some of the drawing tasks easier VW would change all of your reference locations for you. Also, in the manual it says "After setting the local origin and a distant center, it is easy to switch between them." But it doesn't say how. When you double click the origin button, you only get the option to define a new origin or define the drawing center as the origin - you can't switch back to a previously defined origin.

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Hi Markus,

Could you please send the files exhibiting this behavior to me at (tfapohunda@nemetschek.net)?

Thanks,

Tolu

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