Request for a Users Guide

[visard]

VW long ago decided not to invest in a proper product manual. Now that VW no longer ships with any sort of written material is it to much to ask for an honest effort of producing a up-to-date, lucid, and complete on-line users guide?

[Robert Anderson]

You can purchase a printed manual as an option. The online help is based on the same info as the manual. As far as I know it's up-to-date and complete, and frankly, I find it lucid (our Pubs staff is really a bunch of pros, IMNSHO).

[IanH]

I got two written manuals with my 2008 Designer edition. One for Fundamentals and the other for the designer features.

[Ray Libby]

New licenses get printed manuals, ugrades do not.

[visard]

Robert, I respect you and your work immensely but I've used VectorWorks and MiniCad long enough to see that similar questions do pop up routinely. Part of the reason for this is that the manual is not complete and neither is the help line. That is why we see the publication of third party manuals. Examples of the failure of the help line to provide guidance are numerous - one example: type in 'align work and ground plane'. This kind of fundamental information should not be difficult to get.

Respectfully,

Edward Bell

[Tom G.]

There is a cultural difference between the general user, who has one kind of world view--arguably more artistic--and the core NNA staff, which is engineer-centric in their world view. Thus, when these boards are constantly peppered by users asking "this seems really simple, but I've searched and searched and can't find an answer" they may have no recourse but to be sent back to the manuals or to a third party book. But the NNA in-house manuals are like a dictionary and not a thesaurus. They give equal weight to every tool and process and are in no particular order. In other words, there is NO context. Sending a new user out to buy a third party book would look to the average shmoe as a rather big risk to take on, not to mention cost, when they only need to get over one hurdle to proceed. This is a little like asking someone to learn French before they can order a baguette.

There should be a primer on using the least number of tools to get the most done such that the new user is effective with VW as soon as possible along with a Knowledge Base that provides answers. What we have instead is a promise with no follow-through. This tough-love approach by NNA results in a lot of good people giving up or stopping in their journey into VW thus the overall effect is one that limits the pool of possible users and certainly slows users from upgrading consistently. In big offices, where NNA is placing its resources, and betting its future, there are guru's to help you through. If you are trying to learn on your own, then best of luck. This culture will not change until key people are brought into NNA with a teacher's point of view, who value effective learning materials, who can vote with the core decision makers and swing the ship such that effective resources are made available and placed in easy to find locations. (Please don't misunderstand; the NNA staff are hardworking and doing their best. And 3rd Party books can be a terrific investment) But culturally, the providers and the users are not on the same page, or even on the same manual.

Edited March 4, 2008 by tguy

[Robert Anderson]

Tguy, I see why you say what you do, but I was not suggesting a 3rd party manual. Visard was saying that we "don't invest in a proper product manual", and I suggested that he (as an upgrade user) could purchase a printed manual as an option. I didn't clarify that I meant from NNA -- we do make a print manual available for all new users and for upgrade users who want the manual in printed form. Otherwise, upgrade users get a detailed "what's new" CD. I will add that we have received almost no complaints about this approach. We offer high-quality training CDs that provide the "context" you describe. I don't think it's accurate to characterize this as "tough love".

[Tom G.]

Robert: You replied before I could edit my text and take the reference to you out. You said nothing about 3rd party books; this was my point and not yours. Sorry.

If one looks at the prominence on the NNA website of the Knowledge Base, and contrast that with the woeful attention it's gotten over the years, then I think that my tough-love comment has at least some merit.

Providing content, such as the What's New disks and manuals (by request) is very important though it is not the issue, in my view. The issue is their quality in regard to ensuring the success of the beginner. Here, context is everything and calls for a different approach to teaching. (The What's New disks are, by their title, not a teaching guide, although QT movies provide the most effective method yet for getting an idea across. (See J. Pickup's podcasts))

PS. You are hard-working to be online at this hour. Thanks for your time and for your response. (Note that I've made further edits to my original post.)

Edited March 4, 2008 by tguy

[IanH]

I would like to add a little comment to this.

I worked commercially in IT for over 20 years, some for it doing broadcast computer graphics before that sort of stuff could be done on a PC. I also dabbled in some applications such as 3D Max but thankfully not in Autocad - thankfully is not due to the Audocad product but the fact that my mind was not pre conditioned with another way of doing something. However, most of the time I was creating applications for other to use, or at least be managed by someone else.

The learning curve to get into VW is huge. As a student going through a change in career, my student edition consisted of an application CD that also contained an online reference manual - which didn't always work due to incompatibilities with my browser.

Now that I have gone for the full retail package with 2008, things are immensely easier thanks to the hard copy manuals - I fund it good to jump into the middle of a reference manual and surf the topic and associated topics, especially if one is not glued to the PC. However...

I made my first money in the IT business 25 years ago authoring and co-authoring a couple of books for a popular home computer (BBC Microcomputer) that was available at the time. Instead of simply telling the users what to do (they were books containing listings for the home computer and how to program), they also explained why things were done that way. The idea was that the user not just created a working program, but also learned why it was created how it was.

Unfortunately, the VW manuals (well certainly the ones that I have seen) are simply reference guides and do little to guide the users through why things should be done in the way that they should be done. This may be fine for those that have some knowledge, but the steep learning curve to get into VW cannot be under estimated and for this, product manuals from NNA are sadly light on the ground. Yes, there are some excellent third party manuals around such as Jonathan Pickup's excellent quickstart guides and manuals, but maybe something from NNA, at nominal cost, would not go astray?

[brudgers]

In my opinion, an "easy to use" cad program would be about worthless...and they pretty much are.

A cad program needs to do sophisticated things to be productive at a professional level. That requires complexity that a novice simply won't be able to grasp because they are a novice.

Six months is a reasonable expectation for an experienced person having to obtain enough practical knowledge of a CAD program to understand what it can do and begin to develop a smooth workflow.

I believe the documentation could be better. But the main way to learn is by doing...and to that end some tutorials should be included in the box.

[Tom G.]

brudgers: I don't think anyone has commented about the program itself, in this thread, but rather the documentation.

The complexity of a program does not necessarily mean that it can't produce drawings simply, or be effective immediately. One just has to find the pathway to the tools that are indispensable which means finding the one set to best serve the beginner and another set for the intermediate user and so on. Helping the novice find this path and the proper tools is the job of a teacher.

And I do agree that the main way to learn is by doing.

[brudgers]

In my opinion, there is no success for the beginner.

Success comes with experience...

It's not a Piper Cub, it's an F16.

[Robert Anderson]

Edward, you said:

Examples of the failure of the help line to provide guidance are numerous - one example: type in 'align work and ground plane'. This kind of fundamental information should not be difficult to get.

When I type in "align working plane", the second topic listed is the Working Planes palette (which is the correct place to go.) It doesn't give me a listing of possible workflows, in this you are correct.

[speculation]It is somewhat ironic that if our Tech Pubs staff could -get out of the job- of producing a printed manual and could focus exclusively on online help, these issues could improve. In some ways, and in contradiction to the initial discussion of this thread, the printed manual is holding us back. But there's no denying that a printed manual is a market requirement.[/speculation]

[brudgers]

I don't think it's appropriate to take a laptop everywhere I go to read.

[Tom G.]

Robert:

The manual attempts to do something in a static manner that is far better performed dynamically. An NNA produced webinar*, for example, is more successful as a teaching tool than the manual--at least as the manual is written today, although they can be very helpful, as anyone who remembers Janice Kent or has seen the Bauer book on VW 10 will attest.

If you want to find out about one of the most powerful tools in VW today, Stack Layers, you have to read through three quarters of the manual to find the discussion, found right alongside Creating IFC Entities. Is this where we expect our users to go? (Don't bother to check the KnowledgeBase for info on Stack Layers--I already did.) If the manual was ignored for two years, would anyone notice? Seriously. Put the resources into cranking out quick, cheap webinar-style QT movies. All hands on deck. Start yesterday.

*Webinars are QT movies produced in-house for the benefit of VW User Group Members.

[michael john williams]

I would like to add a few points:

1. There is no UK produced user manuel.

2. The manual dics that came with the upgrades do not work [as reported previously]

3. The help link is not up to date.

4. Both manuals and the help link are poorly written and not user friendly - why do you think most users come here first for advice?

5. The movies are great and I think should be expanded.

6. Training is most probably the best way of learning and NNA, like other businesses, offer this for free by trainers who get involved on the basis that users will appoint them for further training.

If I were NNA, a once every 6 months ad in BD [uK architect's mag] does not sale the product to new users but tours with demos and free training, backed up by good, easy to understand help links and movies does.

[Benson Shaw]

I started using VW about the same time as a friend of mine. I am no genius at this, but could use the program from the start. He could not. He stayed with it for several versions of the program, but he never became very proficient. He is great at other ways of creating 2d and 3d drawings and presentation materials. My use of and interest in the printed manuals was very helpful to me. His failure to find answers and paths to success in the manuals was a constant source of irritation and frustration for us both.

Do I wish VW were better explained, easier to use, and a perfect fit for everyone (and that I were better at using it)? Sure, but no matter what the publisher and 3rd parties present in the aps and user support material, there is a huge range of user aptitude out there. There will always be varying levels of success and satisfaction among the users.

Modern "manual" materials (user forums, podcasts, webinars, printed, CD, phone help, etc) are way better than those of 5 or 10 years ago. BTW, I keep my V12 print manuals within arms reach. I may order the 2008 set, too.

-B

[boxjoint]

When I began using VW I was overwhelmed. I fumbled along for several years until I upgraded to v12 and made a determined effort to learn the program by reading the manuals, the online Help, the Architect workbook by Resolve, and viewing the training CD's and online videos.

I was not satisfied and still am not after a year of hard work. I am educated and have taught myself a great many things, and am completely confident that given the right information, VW could be one of them. It shouldn't be this difficult.

Tguy's analogy to language is a good one. Learning a language is not simply a matter of memorizing a bunch of words, it requires understanding how the words fit together in order to communicate clearly. So it is with a program like VW.

The VW manuals should be comprehensive enough for someone who is willing to dedicate themselves to be able to learn to operate the program. Unfortunately, I don't believe this is the case. The problem is that the VW manuals describe VW in very sterile terms. They do NOT give any information on WHY one might choose a certain tool, object, or command over another when both do similar things, or HOW tools or objects interact with others. And, as tguy said, there is no context. Often, important information is not included, or is left to guesswork or trial and error. There should be many more illustrations to supplement the text. This is, after all, a program that is used by graphics oriented people. NNA staff should be watching the forum for those questions that get asked repeatedly and address them in the manual.

A bright spot was the VW 12.5 Upgrade Companion. This guide was written in a much more approachable style than the manual. The Tips and Considerations sections present the kind of info that I was seeking. I'd suggest incorporating info like this into the manual itself.

NNA's response to my plight might be "Well, we offer both in person and online training sessions and there are third party manuals available".

I think offering training seminars for money is an acceptable thing for NNA to do for those who want or need to fast track their learning. But those of us who cannot afford to pay for training deserve be provided with complete information on the product that we have paid for as part of the product.

[boxjoint]

A related issue is an overabundance of duplicative information. Creating more resources is not the way to solve the problem. Improving the existing resources is. There are currently too many places to look and too much info to sort when looking for an answer. In the same way that VW12.5 consolidated tools and menus to eliminate multiple places or ways to do the same thing, the help resources should be consolidated so there there are fewer places to go for all the info.

[visard]

Robert, thanks for your response. I would like to go back to my original comments and agree with you. NNA should abandon the printed manual and develop the on-line help 100%, starting with the index and search function. As a long term user I often need to refresh memory or find a specific piece of information in order to get on with it. I don't often need background. I would also like to agree with the comments regarding the training videos you've produced. I find them particularly helpful and appreciate hearing the thinking behind the process and well as having the ability to stop and check-out an issue or train of thought and restart the training when convenient.

[boxjoint]

NNA should abandon the printed manual and develop the on-line help 100%

Personally, I'm not sure how it's less work to produce only the online manual when the content seems exactly the same. Perhaps there are less formatting issues.

However, I believe it could be a disadvantage for many people who do not have the luxury of dual monitors. I keep my help window available on one screen so I can refer to it easily. It is much more cumbersome with only one monitor.

You also cannot sit in your favorite chair and read. AND you cannot make notes in the margins!

I wonder what the sales statistics are on printed manuals?

[mike m oz]

The problem with printed manuals is that very few people actually use them, and they usually end up gathering dust in a cupboard somewhere.

The current Online Help system would be more appealing if it wasn't so boring and unattractive. There is a need to recognise that the program user's primary means of communication is graphics and therefore that the online Help system should work this way as well. It should be more graphic oriented, colourful, and include elements like explanations, example and Quick time movies.

The ideal online Help system would also have three component parts:

- Reference (the equivalent of the current NNA manuals)

- Principles (the equivalent of the current Resolve manuals).

- Tutorials (the equivalent of the current third party manuals).

With links in between them so that users can explore and learn according to their needs.

A system like that would work.

Postscript:

What I am suggesting is:

- A more complementary system, but one that recognises that most users will be looking for 'How To' information rather than 'What' information. Therefore this should be the primary function of the Help system.

- A more graphic oriented approach with good colorful diagrams and pictures, and Quicktime movies illustrating how to do things.

Note: The ability to print off a whole topic area in one go is also required (in lieu of the current frame by frame basis).

Edited March 8, 2008 by mike m oz

[Tom G.]

This just came across my desk and it is quite shocking in its simplicity and attractiveness:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=aidanchopra

It is Sketchup for Dummies, introduced in the newest Sketchup newsletter.

[Tom G.]

One other observation of benefits to having a well stocked library of how-to's is that the volunteers who give their time to this very important Techboard, are less likely to be burned out by answering the same questions again and again. Their time could be spent on supplying perhaps shorter answers describing variations to a problem's solution rather than laying out its primary steps.

[brudgers]

Based upon my experience, libraries will have limited affect on what questions are posted.

Case in point, the post that started this thread.