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scales - design layers, viewports, sheet layers w/ text paste - muck

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Based on what little I have seen and understand, design and viewport scales may have some congruity, generally, though if you had an enlarged or reduced view in a viewport (which is probably as often the case as not), this congruity would be stretched.

Do folks usually set up design layers at 1:1 or something approximating the printed scale. It seems the latter since sheet layers have no scale? But that could be adjusted via the scale of the viewport before going to the sheet layer?

I copied some text from a design layer (scale 1:48) and pasted into a sheet layer (no scale, only a sheet size); the result were super scaled text blocks which I had no success in re-scaling (would have thought 1/48). I was allowed to copy and paste a border accurately, since VW 'knows' what a border is, I guess.

And when one must accurately draw on a sheet layer (say on a converted to lines viewport elevation), one must do the scaling math? (And thus, don't do it?)

I apologize for this rather poorly sorted mix of ignorance.

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• Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Rather than drawing on the Sheet Layer and having to do the math to convert to scale, you may want to try double clicking on the red candy cane stripe of the Viewport on the Sheet Layer which brings up a dialog where you can edit Annotations - this allows you to draw at the scale of the Viewport.

From what I can tell, the only "drawing" I do on the Sheet Layer is to place the Border and title Block. Everything else is "imported" via a viewports and placed on the Sheet Layer - sorta that "presentation board" concept.

The concept of scaling a Design Layer may be a "Legacy" thing as there were no viewports years ago. Seems now you could draw at 1:1 on Design Layers and then "throw a scale on it" when bringing the Viewport onto a Sheet Layer.

What you could have done with your text experiment is on the Design Layer create a Viewport and place it on the Sheet Layer at a scale of 1:48 - I think then you would have gotten the results you expected.

From an AutoCAD perspective - Design Layers = Model Space and Sheet Layers = Paper Space...I'm no AutoCAD guy so I really can't expound too much more with that...

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VW doesn't use scale factors for text like acad.

When you paste between scales it changes the point size of the pasted text.

To resize the pasted text, change its size using the text menu item or the OIP.

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But you can in fact re-size the text 1/48 and paste it on the sheet layer if you want to do it that way. The only catch is that you have to check the "Scale Text" box in the Scale Objects dialog box. It's often overlooked, both when using the Scale Objects command and when changing the scale of a design layer.

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the sheet layer(s) are always set to 1:1

the design layers recommendation is to set to a scale that you may be using to print

the latter let you use the actual point size of fonts of gthe final product

scale tool should be inserted in the VP that way it will take the scale of the VP automatically

we have redone our title blocks to 1:1 so we can insert them on the sheet layers

if you change the scale of the VP you can adjust fonts etc in the advanced setting box

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The benefit of drawing in a scale that is close to the final output scale is that you get a much more WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get) environment. If you draw at 1:1, either you will use line weights that are far too heavy and will have to adjust them down in your viewports, or you loose the ability to see the line weights at a reasonable zoom.

Drawing at the output scale also makes it much easier to see where you have room to put in notes and dimensions without going off the edge of the page.

Drawing at 1:1 is certainly possible, but I think you loose a lot of benefits for a fairly minor step in the drawing setup process.

Pat

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I think of 1:1 model layers as an ideological position from the world of other CAD programs...and one that doesn't really apply to Vectoworks.

It's not as if you are actually drawing at 1/4" to a foot or such...since the objects are represented at full size...6" walls are 6" not 1/8"

It was a little confusing at first...and of course it's horrible PR with acadians.

But it seems to make for a better work flow in my case...at least once I paid the dumb tax.

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For my part, I will chew well and attempt to digest, and very much appreciate you folks' contributed thinking and tips.

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I keep my design layers as close to the output scale as possible. So my design layers are 1:100 or 1:50. Design layers for details work better at 1:5 or 1:10. as Pat says, keeping the design layer at the output scale makes it easier to see the text and dimensions in relation to the details

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This was the ticket for me to hack together (momentarily) the text part of this question...changing the size of variously sized text individually would have taken more time, unnecessarily.

But you can in fact re-size the text 1/48 and paste it on the sheet layer if you want to do it that way. The only catch is that you have to check the "Scale Text" box in the Scale Objects dialog box. It's often overlooked, both when using the Scale Objects command and when changing the scale of a design layer.
Edited by Brooke
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Very cool and useful tip (and huh?).

Rather than drawing on the Sheet Layer and having to do the math to convert to scale, you may want to try double clicking on the red candy cane stripe of the Viewport on the Sheet Layer which brings up a dialog where you can edit Annotations - this allows you to draw at the scale of the Viewport.
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• Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Oops, guess I wasn't making myself clear - what I meant is if let's say, you have a section on a Sheet Layer, if it's out-of date you'll see a red candy cane stripe around it - by double clicking, you can enter the Viewport at its scale and embellish it (as opposed to drawing over the top of said section on the Sheet Layer). Obviously, you can do this even if the Viewport is up-to-date, there just won't be the candy-cane bounding box around it...

Sorry for the confusion

Edited by Wes Gardner
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.... horrible PR with acadians....

This set me thinking about how we could explain design layers to an Ottocad user. I came up with this:

- Imagine that you can have multiple modelspaces in one file, all viewable in the same model tab; but each modelspace can be turned on or off just as layers can.

- And imagine that each modelspace has a paperspace and a single viewport that are associated with it and dedicated to it. They're automatically created when you create the modelspace, and you always see each modelspace through its associated viewport. Other modelspaces can be visible at the same time, through their own personal paperspace viewports, but each modelspace has its own unique paperspace and viewport. These associated viewports are all overlapping and in fact they all have the same boundaries, which are the drawing limits of the file. Since they have no border, you don't see them as objects. You see all of a modelspace through its automatic viewport, without changing to a layout tab. And since these associated paperspaces don't have layout tabs, there's no visible evidence of them either.

- You can select the zoom scale of the automatic viewport, but it's a locked viewport otherwise. Regardless of the zoom scale of the viewport, you still see all of its associated modelspace through it.

- You can work in a modelspace's automatic viewport and in its associated paperspace at the same time, without switching back and forth. You wouldn't even be aware of the viewport, unless you had geometry in other modelspaces visible at the same time but with their viewports zoomed to other scales. The different zoom factors of the other modelspaces' viewports would be the only visible clue that you're looking through viewports.

- The program automatically puts all text and dimensions in the associated paperspace, but all geometry in modelspace. Even though dimensions are in paperspace, they measure the geometry in relation to modelspace, without the user having to set a scale. All text and all arrowheads are sized in relation to paperspace, and since they're in paperspace they won't change size when you change the zoom scale of the viewport. But they will move around to remain in the same positions relative to the geometry. As long as you're in the model tab, drawing/moving/copying is always done in relation to modelspace dimensions, regardless of whether the objects are in a modelspace or in its associated paperspace. The only thing that's related to paperspace is font size and dimension properties.

- There's no apparent distinction between a modelspace and its associated paperspace and viewport. All geometry, text, and dimensions that are in one particular modelspace and its associated paperspace, or in any other currently editable modelspaces and their associated paperspaces, are selectable and editable as though they were all in the same space.

- In addition to all that, there are normal tabbed layouts, and the tabbed layouts can have ordinary manually set viewports for viewing any part of any modelspace and its associated paperspace.

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Imagine that...

You've lost them right there.

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Oops, guess I wasn't making myself clear -
No, that much I figured out. You were clear enough. I wasn't clear enough with the 'huh?' which was pointed at editing annotations as a means of drawing, which seems a bit camouflaged.

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