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Robert Anderson

RAL color palette file **DELETED**

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The RAL color system is protected by copyright. If you go to the RAL official website,

RAL site legal notice page

You will see the following legal notice:

"The brands

* RAL

* RAL C1 DIGITAL

* RAL D8 DESIGN

* RAL E1 EFFECT

* RAL E2 EFFECT

* RAL K1 CLASSIC

* RAL K5 CLASSIC

* RAL K7 CLASSIC

are registered trademarks of RAL Deutsches Institut f?r G?tesicherung und Kennzeichnung e.V., 53757 Sankt Augustin.

Representation of the RAL colours is subject to release and approval by RAL. RAL colour collections and RAL colour systems are copyrighted by RAL.

The double colour fan deck RAL E2 EFFECT is protected by utility model rights.

Use of the RAL trademark as well as a full or partial production, marketing or any other use of RAL products shall be subject to explicit approval by RAL."

Unless the poster can credibly assure me that he is licensed to distribute the RAL color palette, I must assume that he has come by it in an unlicensed manner. Therefore I have deleted the info.

Edited by Robert Anderson

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Christiaan, first and foremost, this forum -cannot- be a medium for unauthorized distribution of copyrighted materials. Period. It's not a matter of 'either-or'. The good news is that we are working with RAL so that they will soon be supporting VectorWorks in their "RAL DIGITAL" product, so it will be (soon we hope) available through RAL for all VectorWorks users who need RAL compatiblity.

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Christiaan, first and foremost, this forum -cannot- be a medium for unauthorized distribution of copyrighted materials. Period. It's not a matter of 'either-or'.

Totally agree. I didn't post the RAL file.

The good news is that we are working with RAL so that they will soon be supporting VectorWorks in their "RAL DIGITAL" product, so it will be (soon we hope) available through RAL for all VectorWorks users who need RAL compatiblity.

Is this RAL DIGITAL something we need to purchase separately?

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...and again...it is all about the money.

The word 'service to our (loyal) VW users' is a word which is hardly ever spontaniasly used......that is a pitty.

People at RAl do have to get paid but why not have a RAL template..to get people interested?

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The good news is that we are working with RAL so that they will soon be supporting VectorWorks in their "RAL DIGITAL" product, so it will be (soon we hope) available through RAL for all VectorWorks users who need RAL compatiblity.

Once again, you bring good tidings, Robert!

This is a business model I support wholeheartedly - why didn't you come up with it when you started in your position? (Can non-US users now get a refund/rebate for McLibraries and McObjects they cannot use?)

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Better than having a system of refunds, just make a neutral version of VW in the first place and have a localised version for the U S of A.

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Ownerdude, you ask,

People at RAl do have to get paid but why not have a RAL template..to get people interested?

The answer is, "Because it violates copyright."

Truthfully, I can't (and don't want to) control what my users do. But I can (and do want to) control what goes on in this forum. We will not and cannot allow violations of copyright here, for what I hope are obvious reasons.

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This whole thing is stupid. The only use we could put a RAL colour palette to is to specify RAL colours for coatings on building products. RAL get paid by the coating manufacturers to licence the colour range. Why should they get paid twice...and why would they not make selection of their products easy and free? Dumb Dumb Dumb.

You're just doing your job Robert, but I think your interpretation of the situation is a little draconian. Some guy using Vectorworks makes up a palette of RGBs that help his drawings look like the colours he specifies for his RAL coatings. He shares it for others to do the same. It's hardly going to bring down Capitalism.

To think that Architects are going to pay for a separate piece of software just to specify RAL colours is cloud cuckoo land. If I need a close RAL match I'll just look for the RGB value on countless websites. Bung a few dollars on the price of Vectorworks and bundle the palette on European localised versions for heaven's sake. And let's have NCS too while you're at it.

My two pennies.

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Chris,

It's fine to discuss various business models and even to protest them, although that is (I would think) off-topic for this forum. RAL is just practicing capitalism (with a little "c"), and I have no beef with that (given the alternatives).

RAL sells consistency, and they use copyright and trademark to enforce this consistency. If I specify a RAL color 1234 from a palette of unknown provenance, thinking it to be "genuine" RAL, and it's off, possibly by a large amount, and it spoils a project, who is responsible for the re-painting job? If I've gotten the RAL color through the auspices of the VectorWorks web-site, I might feel like NNA is responsible, at least partly. (It is a moderated site, after all).

It's not draconian, it's self interest, and interest in the big picture.

I daresay that architects who need to use RAL colors professionally will indeed pay for it. And those who don't, won't.

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NCS is available for ArchiCAD - but not for free. That's the way it goes.

NNA has nothing to do with this. RAL sells software, too. (Not to mention the expensive swatches & boxes they also sell. Anyway, compared with Munsell, the favourite of Dulux UK, RAL-stuff is cheap!)

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the non-US users - the majority - are paying licence fees to American paint, furniture, window etc manufacturers, whose products can be used only by the minority.

If not licence fees, at least for the time spent by NNA staff to create & (or) configure all these useless libraries.

I want a refund for those if I'm supposed to pay extra for something I actually can use.

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Tim Bray, recalling advice he offered to the CEO of Pantone in 1995:

I said ?Give the software away to Netscape and Microsoft (for IE). If it?s good, millions of page designs on the Net will be specced in Pantone numbers. Your upside is huge.?

He looked at me like I was completely [edit] nuts.

Pantone's Missed Chance:

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2007/08/26/Pantone

I'm with you Chris on how silly it seems. You don't need to sell a licence simply for consistency. Anyway, the problem, as Petri points out, comes more down to the way the VectorWorks business is configured. We subsidise U.S. users by having to buy a version that's already been localised for the U.S.

Strip all the U.S. stuff out, offer VectorWorks for a cheaper price, and let U.S. users pay for the U.S. stuff.

I used to be of the view that NNA should put everything in VW for users like you and I in the UK by default. But Petri has made me see the sense in doing it the other way round.

Edited by Katie

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Christiaan said:

Strip all the U.S. stuff out, offer VectorWorks for a cheaper price, and let U.S. users pay for the U.S. stuff.

I believe we do that; it's called VectorWorks Fundamentals.

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I daresay that architects who need to use RAL colors professionally will indeed pay for it. And those who don't, won't.

UK architects can't really avoid specifying RAL colours, and showing those colours somewhere on their drawings, so we're all using it 'professionally'.

I believe your confidence in the numbers willing to pay for the pleasure is misplaced though.

As an aside...this thread did lead me to discover, via the German RAL website, why the RAL9006 on my last building turned out so inconsistently...

http://www.ral.de/en/ral_farben/anwender/9006_9007.php

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I

Christiaan said:

Strip all the U.S. stuff out, offer VectorWorks for a cheaper price, and let U.S. users pay for the U.S. stuff.

I believe we do that; it's called VectorWorks Fundamentals.

I've seen Petri mention that this isn't the case because it's crippled when it comes to adding local content.

It's also crippled in terms of features such as the Nav Palette.

Rather than a cut down version of VectorWorks (Fundamentals) what we really need is a more internationally *neutral* version of VectorWorks Architect.

Then all Chris and I need is a local distributor that actually adds content to VW.

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Christiaan, why don't you submit a (preferably prioritizd) list of content you'd like to see in the UK? I have resources available to develop this content, and we have more UK content in store. It's not like we ignore the UK, and we'd love to have more input.

I don't know exactly what Petri is talking about, in the statement that VW Fundamental is "crippled when it comes to adding local content". This statement makes no sense to me. I know that I hate it when other people put words in my mouth, maybe better not to put words in his...

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Christiaan, why don't you submit a (preferably prioritizd) list of content you'd like to see in the UK? I have resources available to develop this content, and we have more UK content in store. It's not like we ignore the UK, and we'd love to have more input.

Okay, I'll do that Robert (I'll do it in another thread). Although half the problem is that VectorWorks is already filled up with content designed first and foremost with the U.S. in mind. If you're going to include parametric windows and stairs, etc. in the default install either they should be as neutral as possible (and extensible by local distributors) or they should install differently for different countries by default.

I don't know exactly what Petri is talking about, in the statement that VW Fundamental is "crippled when it comes to adding local content". This statement makes no sense to me. I know that I hate it when other people put words in my mouth, maybe better not to put words in his...

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=9&Number=92550&Main=19781#Post92550

No, Fundamentals is not the solution. Although it may not have much content, it is crippled as comes to adding the local content.

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I don't know exactly what Petri is talking about, in the statement that VW Fundamental is "crippled when it comes to adding local content". This statement makes no sense to me. I know that I hate it when other people put words in my mouth, maybe better not to put words in his...

I'm primarily thinking of wall styles, but also VS (I believe all calls are not available in Fundamentals.)

Now, my door, window and wall style tag objects rely heavily on wall styles. Things like automatic fire rating of doors in designated firewalls, warnings of walls that are too high for the certification of the type - here I use the URL field, since there is no field for maximum allowed height! - and so on.

So, to get the famous local content to work, users are forced to pay for all the useless stuff - like NNA doors and windows.

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...I don't know exactly what Petri is talking about, in the statement that VW Fundamental is "crippled when it comes to adding local content". This statement makes no sense to me. ...

Hi Robert,

That would be so great. A VW Fundamentals that had all the Architects version's technology like

  • walls staying joined together when you move one of them,
  • Batch Printing
  • Batch Export PDF
  • Import Scaleable PDF
  • Rotated Plan View
  • etc.

But no Architectural content, It could be a Fundamentals for an other Industry. Even for an Industry NNA hasn't anticipated yet.

In other words, keep VectorWorks Fundamentals fundamental, without slowly turning it into VW Light.

Thanks,

Gerard

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Let's see if that makes sense to Robert...

Well, what else?

Shape-file import/export

Support for Geo-Referenced Image Files

Two-way worksheets

Worksheets in AutoCAD exports

Design-layer viewports

Let's see if this makes sense to Robert...

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Goodness, Gerard and Petri, it seems you -do- use features of Architect after all!

Just because you don't use 100% of the features of any product, the product can still justify its cost.

Our official position on this is the following: you'll find us all ears as to how we can improve the content of VW Architect to make it useful to you. The more specific your suggestions, the better we can improve our features to work in your markets. (i.e. "useless" is not particularly helpful, but particular suggestions are more likely to bear fruit.)

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OK. Here's a particular suggestion: the door object should generate the following attributes:

TYP

ID

NRO

KOK

KAR

MAT

VRI

KYN

KAT

PAL

ERI

HEL

PNO

YLE

VER

(As per RT 15-10645.)

The object and its components should be in classes stipulated by RT 15-10660.

Well, there! I expect a fully compliant door object to be a part of the next maintenance release.

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Goodness, Gerard and Petri, it seems you -do- use features of Architect after all!

I do indeed, but - being an independent developer and consultant - I have to advise against buying Architect or Landmark. Not because of a conflict of interest, just to help them save money.

By February, I'll have a quite decent substitute for NNA's wall styles* for half the price and not requiring the purchase of American content. By March, a useful slab tool. And so on.

An actually useful plant tool has been on the market for months now! A door since last week.

Very soon, only a fool would buy anything but Fundamentals in Finland.

EDIT

*) This is something I'll just continue from the starting point I had well before NNA had anything like it.

Edited by Petri

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