v13 vs. v12 wall components and colour attributes

[Christiaan]

The colour of what?

The components. In the Edit Wall Style window edit the overall "Wall" to "Use Class Attributes. This will mean the outer lines and the components will use class attributes. Then you can edit the line thickness of the components manually to be different from the outer Wall line.

[mike m oz]

At last I think I comprehend the point you are trying to make: You want the option to have separate choices for the Line thickness and the Line colour (like on the attributes pallette) rather than having them rolled into one. In other words the ability to have exceptions for every aspect of the attributes - except Line Type I presume.

You can achieve what you want with the addition of only one extra Class - use a generic Wall Component Class for all of your components. For each component set the Pen by Class, and set the Fill manually. Yes if you do want to change a wall's line colour you will need to edit two classes rather than one.

If you have set up your own library of Wall Styles with attributes the way you want them the need to change all of a wall's line colours shouldn't come up too often.

[Christiaan]

You can achieve what you want with the addition of only one extra Class

For the love of god, the next person who repeats this should sit in the corner of their office and say to themselves 1000 times, "I will read a thread properly before making suggestions".

I know you can use an extra f**king Class to achieve this functionality. Am I a complete moron when it comes to explaining things?

At least you admit that we have lost a capability we had in v12. I don't want to create an extra Class simply to control the line thickness of components. Creating Classes simply to control attributes is stupid. I just want the capability we had in v12. And we can have this capability by simply adding Class setting options to the line, style and colour drop down menus, something that should have been there in the first place.

[Christiaan]

I've now submitted this as a bug.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

I think I now understand what is happening.

In VW12, when we set the class of the wall, All pen colours will be the one of that class. Whe then can set all pen wieghts of the components manualy.

In VW2008, The pen colours of the components will not adapt to the pen colour of the class of the overal wall. They will have their own class to adapt to.

Thus, Christiaan is correct if he says that there is functionallity lost.

Why?

If you want the colour of the pen of the components to be of the class of the overal wall, you'll need to set the components class to the overal wall class. Because of this, The linewieght will be the same too.

[Christiaan]

Not so much lost functionality, but lost capability. We can achieve the outcome I need in v13, but we can't do it in a proper manner as we could in v12 (i.e. by using attribute controls to control attributes, rather than using classes to control attributes).

[Christiaan]

You can achieve what you want with the addition of only one extra Class

In fact this is actually incorrect. If I want our wall components to be the same colour as our walls (and set by Class) I would need to create a separate component Class for each wall we have (i.e. External, Internal, Separating Party Wall, Separating Common Wall, Partition and RC Concrete) because each of our walls are a different colour to help us ensure we place the right walls in the right situation.

[mike m oz]

Don't hold your breath waiting for it to be fixed - I suspect it is working as designed.

Even if it isn't there are far more important issues to deal with than three user's being stressed out because they have to use one additional Class to deal with a need that is not part of most users' workflow.

[Christiaan]

You're wrong again (about just "one additional" class). Read my post above.

And it's four people now. And more to come probably when people eventually understand the problem.

[Christiaan]

The outcome of it all for us is that our wall components will have to be black so we can set the line thickness separately and not populate our Class structure with stupid superfluous Classes that will help only to confuse matters for our users (and in fact if you bring our v12 Wall Styles into v13 this is precisely what happens).

It's a crap situation because it means our walls won't be as easy to differentiate as they are when using v12, which means using v13 will be more prone to mistakes and delays.

And I would hope NNA fix this problem quick smart because now I have to explain to the boss, who just coughed up a pretty penny to upgrade, why we have effectively lost the ability to differentiate walls as easily as we could in v12.

I have to say I don't care if it's working as designed. For us this a bug, pure and simple. When we open our v12 files in v13 our wall components are no longer coloured as they were in v12.

[mike m oz]

Christiaan:

- You can do it with one Class if you so wish. Use a generic Wall Component Class for all of the components.

- Why do your components all have to be black? (I assume you mean pen and not fill.)

- How is there a connection between black and being able to set the pen thickness?

It seems to me your real issue is about How VW 12 Wall Styles convert to VW 2008 Wall Styles. In the trial I did with two VW 12 Wall Style Drawings they came in looking exactly like they did in VW 12. The component attributes are not set by class though each is nominally set to the . When you edit the Wall Style you can set this to whatever you want: None o a generic component class or a specific component class. Similarly you can set to use or not use Class attributes for the left pen, right pen and fill.

If your VW 12 Wall Styles are not converting correctly then that is what you should bug submit. Make sure you include both the original file and the converted file with clear and consise annotations stating what the conversion problems are.

[Christiaan]

You can do it with one Class if you so wish. Use a generic Wall Component Class for all of the components.

No, because then all components of different wall types will be the same colour, i.e. the colour of this single component Class you propose.

Why do your components all have to be black?

They will need to be black because we won't be able to override them in Viewports, and generally if we're overriding colours in Viewports we want them to be overriden to black, while leaving a boundary line red for instance.

How is there a connection between black and being able to set the pen thickness?

It's not black that's the connection but the fact that we will have to set the colour manually instead of by Class. It's just that we will have to use black for the reason above.

In the trial I did with two VW 12 Wall Style Drawings they came in looking exactly like they did in VW 12.

Then download the wall I attached to a post above and try it with that one to see what I mean.

If your VW 12 Wall Styles are not converting correctly then that is what you should bug submit. Make sure you include both the original file and the converted file with clear and consise annotations stating what the conversion problems are.

That would be a fair point and maybe worth an additional bug submit, except that they're one in the same thing. NNA are not going revise v13 to automatically create new Classes for me when I convert a Wall Style now are they. To overcome this problem all they need to do is add Class settings to the attribute drop down menus.

[mike m oz]

Solution using only two Classes attached.

[Christiaan]

It's not a solution. It doesn't solve my problem.

1) You've added a Class

2) I would need to add a separate component Class for every wall colour we have, which is about 6 (as I've already stated above).

[mike m oz]

In the short term (and maybe the long term) what other choice do you have?

Complaining here about how you think it should is not going to get you out of the manure.

PS: Stop moving the goal posts. Your sample wall has only two line colours in it. Red for the perimeter, and black for the component junctions. I also don't recall any of the other many wall images you have posted being any different.

Edited October 18, 2007 by mike m oz

[Christiaan]

If you bothered to read and understand my posts, which you clearly don't, you would already understand my short term solution (6 posts up):

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89061&page=0#Post89045

Stop moving the goal posts.

P.S. Understand what has been written before throwing patronising insults. The goal posts haven't moved, just your glacial understanding

[Christiaan]

Stop moving the goal posts. Your sample wall has only two line colours in it. Red for the perimeter, and black for the component junctions. I also don't recall any of the other many wall images you have posted being any different.

Okay, now you're just being plain ignorant and a pain in the ass. You really think we just use one wall type in our office? The fact is we have multiple walls, each of a different colour. This isn't moving the goal posts. This is reality, something you clearly have no regard for. I had also already explained this fact above, before you posted your "solution". Not that that makes any difference; you're clearly not interested in actually comprehending what I have to say.

Furthermore the file I posted has only one colour in the design layer for both components and outer lines. And red in the Viewport, for both components and outer lines.

[Guest]

Dworks,

You can actually do this by overriding both classes, and setting the same color to both classes, but use different pen weights for each class - the overall wall class and the various wall component class(es).

Yes, you need one more class to make this work over VW 12. But you can still obtain the function / look / capability. It's a different implementation. Often times, evolution requires change.

And if you plan to use classable wall components anyways, you have to create more classes anyways.

Perhaps to some people / firms, creating additional classes (perhaps 2 - 10 more) is going to affect the work flow. I would bet more times than not, the functions gained far exceed the drawback of have a few more classes in the document.

And the good news is, you are still using far less classes/layers with the VW 2-dimensional organization approach than other CAD programs using a single organizational approach.

[Christiaan]

Sorry if I've snapped at anyone on this. I'll take the blame for not explaining lucidly from the start but it's got rather tedious talking round in circles. And it's annoying to be told by someone who doesn't understand the issue that my problem is not important and that I'm moving the goal posts.

If there's anything I've ever been right about on this forum it is this topic. I don't have a hat but if I did I wouldn't be eating it. If you can't understand what the problem is by the time you've read through to this point then just give up and trust that I'm right and you're wrong. I fully expect the engineers who get my bug submit to understand the situation and I hope that it's expedited.

[Christiaan]

Often times, evolution requires change.

Katie, you never answered my question: what problem is going to be created by adding use "Class" to the style, line and colour drop-down menus in the Component Attributes window?

Until you can answer this you have no basis upon which to make the above comment.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Dworks,

You can actually do this by overriding both classes, and setting the same color to both classes, but use different pen weights for each class - the overall wall class and the various wall component class(es).

Yes, you need one more class to make this work over VW 12. But you can still obtain the function / look / capability. It's a different implementation. Often times, evolution requires change.

And if you plan to use classable wall components anyways, you have to create more classes anyways.

Perhaps to some people / firms, creating additional classes (perhaps 2 - 10 more) is going to affect the work flow. I would bet more times than not, the functions gained far exceed the drawback of have a few more classes in the document.

And the good news is, you are still using far less classes/layers with the VW 2-dimensional organization approach than other CAD programs using a single organizational approach.

Katie, I know that, And I will use it that way.

I do not care if I have a lot of classes. When you give them a good name, they are really manageble. And believe me, I use a looooot of them. Every object must have a class! (for me)

I only wanted to explain for myself and for others what Christiaan wanted to say because it is very confusing.