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v13 vs. v12 wall components and colour attributes


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In v12 I was able to set Wall Component colours to use Class Attributes while setting line thickness and fill independently. In v13, if I'm not missing something, we seem to have lost this capability.

This means I can't have Wall Styles with thick outer lines and thin component lines while simultaneously using Class Attributes for colour. Which means we're faced with going back to using black and white wall components.

I think what needs to happen (preferably quickly considering this is a regression) is?in the Component Attributes dialogue?we should be able to set any single attribute to use Class (as we can everywhere else in the program) instead of being faced with the stark choice of using Class Attributes for Style, Color and Line or not.

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You can do this - choose the "Edit Wall Attributes" button to set the outside limits of the wall using a class, and edit each component to set the style of each component either with their respective wall component class, or overall.

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Yeah but, if you think about it Katie, any Class only only one line thickness setting. Are you suggesting we have one Class for the outer line and a different Class for all the components?

The only separate Class we want to use is for wall lining. The rest of the components we'd like to keep on our standard Wall Class. But we don't seem to be able to do this if we want the components to have a different line thickness to the outer lines.

When editing wall attributes we should, in my opinion, be able to set each aspect (style, colour, line) to a Class on an individual basis, rather than being faced with 'Class Attributes for all' or 'none'.

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As wall component classing was one of the biggies on my wish list, I should have had a look at it in 2008 by now, but haven't. From what I've read though I think NNA have got it right. It would get awfully complicated to have individual class-style attributes. As long as the outer lines of the wall can be set by-wallstyle as well as by-class, then I'm happy.

Going off-class for individual wall element attributes would also lose one of the major reasons it was introduced - the ability to amend walls in viewports by editing classes. Call me a Class Fascist if you like...

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It would get awfully complicated to have individual class-style attributes.

Why? In all other cases throughout the program this capability exists. Why would it complicate things to tell a line to use its Class attribute as opposed to telling 'style, colour and line' to use their Class attribute?

It's simply a matter of adding a use "Class Style" to the the drop down menu for line, style and colour, just as there is in other parts of the program (such as the Attribute palette).

Going off-class for individual wall element attributes would also lose one of the major reasons it was introduced - the ability to amend walls in viewports by editing classes.

Well, then you appear to misunderstand my problem. I want to use Class attributes. What it's doing is forcing me to use individual attributes or create a new Class for components (instead of simply using the standard wall Class).

Understand that we've lost a capability that we had in v12.

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I'm going to have to have a look before commenting further, or risk talking out of my backside, but -

I can't envisage a standard wall class, only classes for brickwork, blockwork, insulation, metsec etc, with further classes to contain whole wall objects, such as walls-internal, walls-external etc. So I'd set blockwork class to have a grey fill or hatch, with a certain lineweight, and then select that class from the wall creation dialog. I wouldn't want the ability to choose blockwork class for that component, but then say, class style for fill, class style for left line, but actually I'd like the right hand side line of that component to go off-class, in a heavier line - because that way you've overridden the class, and thus lost control from the viewport later.

Am I still getting the wrong end of the stick?

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Christiaan,

I'm confused now.

You have an overall wall class, which can be controlled by the overall wall style class.

This can aid in controlling the perimeter line weights of the wall.

You now have wall components that can be classed. (A popular wish list item requested)

The components can be classed for visibility purposes and/or to manage graphic properties.

If you Edit the WALL attributes, you can set the overall wall attributes as a part of the wall style definition, or use the class attribute to control the overall wall attribute.

If you edit the WALL COMPONENT attributes, you can set which class the wall components belong to, as well as their graphic properties. The graphic properties of each wall component can be controlled by the wall component class, or independent of the wall component class.

I suspect the general workflow is to have the WALL attribute to use a class style, which will control the perimeter line weight.

The wall component class is probably only going to be used for visibility needs, and not to control graphic attributes.

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You have an overall wall class, which can be controlled by the overall wall style class.

This can aid in controlling the perimeter line weights of the wall.

You now have wall components that can be classed. (A popular wish list item requested)

The components can be classed for visibility purposes and/or to manage graphic properties.

Indeed but this feature was requested primarily for the ability to turn wall linings on and off, and that's all we currently need this feature for.

We have no need to then give every single component of the wall a different class and class attributes, because they're always part of a Wall Style, which itself is very easy to modify or replace.

We would prefer all wall components, apart from linings, to be on one class. We just want to be able to control line thickness separately, as we could in v12.

Now I'm faced with either creating more Classes that I don't think I should have to or setting wall components to black and setting their line thickness manually.

It seems to me this feature request was slightly misunderstood. I can't see why we can't have the same capability as the Attributes Palette in the Components Attributes window. I can't see why this capability was left out in the first place.

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I think I finally get you.

On each component you want to be able to say, for instance "the left line of this component shall take it's colour from the class, but it's thickness shall be 0.25mm" and you can't be quite so choosy about how attributes follow the class, because the class-style selector is one level too high for you, at the level of combined attribute of linestyle+colour+thickness.

Not sure I agree, even so...

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I think I finally get you.

On each component you want to be able to say, for instance "the left line of this component shall take it's colour from the class, but it's thickness shall be 0.25mm" and you can't be quite so choosy about how attributes follow the class, because the class-style selector is one level too high for you, at the level of combined attribute of linestyle+colour+thickness.

Not sure I agree, even so...

Exactly, but what's there to disagree about. It would add no complexity to speak of.

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Send me a wall style you created in VW 12, and I can show you how to create it in 2008.

I can't imaging a situation, without a supporting image, that would not allow you to create a VW 12 wall style in VW 2008.

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I think you misunderstand me Katie. I *can* create a Wall Style in v13 as I can in v12. It's just that we've lost the level of control we had in v12. If I create a Wall Style that looks and acts like a v12 Wall Style I'm forced to create an extra Class for every difference of line thickness I want within the Wall Style.

I'll send you a file and if you can create the same Wall Style without introducing new Classes into the file I'll send you a chocolate fish and eat my hat.

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You don't have to use a different class for each line thickness within the wall style. That's what I'm trying to say.

You don't have to use wall classes at all. Or you can use them, but not force attributes through the class.

I'll await the file.

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Understand that we've lost a capability that we had in v12.

Christiaan,

Forgive me, but I don't see how we have the ability to set individual component's line by class style in V12.

See the screenshots of my palettes. They seems quite similar to the ones you posted from V13, with the exception that you have the ability to assign color to your components and I do not. I can assign a color to the whole wall, but components only allow for "None", "Pattern", and "Hatch".

Your left and right pen setting also have a "class attributes" checkbox where mine don't.

Can you post shots of how you used do what you are describing in V12?

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Here's the v12 file if anyone's interested in the challenge:

- Convert to v13

- No new Classes are to be introduced

- All line thicknesses must remain as they are

- Components must use colour as drawn, on Design Layers (red).

- Must be able to override attributes of components in Viewport (e.g., as drawn to blue)

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You can't override components in Viewports in VW 12. That's sort of the whole point of classable wall components.

Either you want the limited capabilities of VW 12, or you want the robust capabilities of VW 2008.

You have to introduce new classes if you want component override control, and/or you want visibility control of the wall components.

The situation is not a comparable situation, Christiaan.

To me, it wasn't clear you want all the new features, but no new classes. That's an impossible situation.

I've attached the file I sent back to Christiaan, unaware he still wanted component visibility / override control.

I've also attached Wall ex.vwx to show a variety of wall styles, with and without classes, and overrides of the whole wall, some parts of wall comonents, all wall components, and unstyled walls.

(ignore putrid colors)

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You can't override components in Viewports in VW 12. That's sort of the whole point of classable wall components.

Neither can you in v13. Strictly speaking you override the *Class Attribute*. Whether that's a wall component class or a wall class is besides the point.

Look at the difference between the wall style I attached when you open it in v12 and v13.

Either you want the limited capabilities of VW 12, or you want the robust capabilities of VW 2008.

No, not at all. With all due respect Katie you're completely misunderstanding my request. It's not either-or, it's simply a matter of adding use "Class Style" to the Component Attributes style, line and colour drop-down menus.

The situation is not a comparable situation, Christiaan.

To me, it wasn't clear you want all the new features, but no new classes. That's an impossible situation.

Answer me this: what problem is going to be created by adding use "Class Style" to the style, line and colour drop-down menus in the Component Attributes window?

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You can override components in VW 2008 when the components are classed, and those classes are set to use class attributes.

Without using class attributes, the only override you can make has to do with visibility.

Styled walls do not have the option to set the class via the attributes palette. Only unstyled walls, and that's only for the overall wall.

You have an option to use class style to the style, line, and color for each component. Is this what you want, or don't want?

Either I really don't understand what you are trying to do, or the wall options in the styled wall dialog are not clear to you as to the functionality.

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Here's your file with the same structure, and the same visibility in 2008.

It looks the same in 12 and 2008. Although, because the components are not classed, (I am hearing you don't want to add more classes to the drawing class list) you will not be able to control component visibility or graphic properties in viewports. You will only be able to change the attributes of the pen lines.

(I did not set the wall fill of the components to use class attributes, only the pen weight of both left and right)

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