VW13 worth the wait?

[Ray Libby]

We use the selection tool, click on the object, drag it somewhere and drop it. The video for the new move by points shows almost exactly this, though it is click-move-click (and a pretty rubber-banding line) instead of click drag. I must be missing something because I find it hard to believe that this is toted as a new feature.

This is a new feature that was requested by many people, particularly AutoCad converts.

True WYSIWYG? Doesn't everyone use the color for line weights technique, as screen resolution is to low to precisely discern line thickness

No colors here, never have, never will. I'm happy with the way VW displays line thickness.

Do you remember how VW couldn't plot correct thickness diagonal lines until the last release?

I believe this was an OS thing on Mac, I've never had a problem with this on Windows.

NNA has worked very hard on this release, in my opinion they have really done a great job of streamlining the drawing process.

After working in it the last few months I can't image going back to VW12.

[Ariel]

I'm hoping that the move by points allows you to move an object by clicking anywhere on screen (not necessarily on the object selected). Can anyone confirm this since nowhere in the video did they show it?

[mike m oz]

Yes you can for both Move and Duplicate.

PS: I omitted to mention that with the Duplicate mode there are two option for duplicating:

- Distance: Each of the additional copies will be the distance and angle of the two clicks away.

- Distribution: Each of the copies will be distributed evenly between the distance and angle of the two clicks.

Edited September 14, 2007 by mike m oz

[_c_]

defaults write NSGlobalDomain com.apple.print.apple.pictwpstopdf YES"

now, this is really nice, Petri. Thank you!

o

[altoids]

Petri,

Not a CAD monkey, actually the other end of the spectrum, principal of the firm. Which is why I will not be fired for posting during work hours, but more importantly why I care about the quality of the software that we buy. The firms money is spent on software and the employees who use it, which is me some of the time. If we don't spend it, it goes into my pocket.

The diagonal line was only on the Mac version of VW, but it wasn't due to the Mac OS in any way. It was due to VW not updating their legacy code. See Wrong Line Thickness (revisited). The proof was that the issue was fixed by a VW update.

Type in a string of meaningless gobbled-gook to make VW work as advertised? What will I have to type in for this release to make it work as advertised, me thinks.

If the move command is a offset move, like SketchUp (select the object, then select a start and end point) that is a welcome improvement, but hardly full-point release worthy.

Edited September 14, 2007 by altoids

[mike m oz]

Altoids, the big improvement in VW 2008 that do make it worthwhile are:

- Referencing capabilities: Design Layer Viewports, WGR management.

- Wall styles and the addition of Classable wall components.

- Presentation capabilities: 2D object opacity, unlimited colour choices.

- Rendering: Faster HLR, Open GL shadows and edges.

- Viewports: Background and foreground rendering options.

- Section Viewports: Faster rendering and the addition of wall components.

- Interface: much more intuitive and user friendly (after a day or two of use you will never want to go back to the old interface).

Its only after using these improvements for a while that you will truly appreciate what a difference they make.

Apart from the interface the improvement I like best is the Design Layer Viewports because I can now:

- Reference in the information from a sepatate file containing a DWG import and not acquire all of the DWG crap (Classes, Symbols etc.)

- Have live backgronds in Design Layers for drawings like Ceiling Plans, Room Layouts, Services Plans, Structural Plans, etc. (No more switching to Sheet Layers and annotating in Viewports).

The rest is icing on the cake.

[Guest]

Ariel,

Yes, you are correct - it works without clicking on the object. You have to have the object selected, but you don't have to specify the move / distribution distance by the current coordinate point.

[Speedy Gonzales]

What happens with the VWA 12.5.2 file opened in VWA 2008? Is it converted to a new format for 2008?

If you work on that file, and decide to revert to VWA 12, can I save it back to 12.5.2 without the loss of work?

Thanks in advance for your reponses.

[Petri]

Rant: Why can't a woman be more like a man?

Why isn't VW 2008 more like AutoCAD?

Why isn't VW 2008 more like ArchiCAD?

It can't be funny in Rich & Sean's world.

Now, no-one in their right minds can call me partisan in this respect - after all, I've been made a persona non grata on VectorWorks-related mailing lists because I have - in a less-than-polite tone - requested non-McMansion related improvements. Or maybe one can.

In this poor man's world, VW is a very good compromise between pure draughting and pure 3D-modeling. Versatile: can do - or made to do - almost anything. Cheap. Capable. Easy to use. Easy to customize. The crap you are forced to buy does not (usually) cost you an arm and a leg.

VW has, I understand, the third largest user base of all CAD programs. While a billion flies can be wrong (as eg. Mr. W. Gates's immense fortune testifies), I would really, really like to see how the unhappy customers substantiate & reason their dissatisfaction & claims. They may be right. To their possible detriment, I may even agree. Just give me the substance!

Yours,

Higgins

Edited September 15, 2007 by Petri

[Petri]

Type in a string of meaningless gobbled-gook to make VW work as advertised?

Traditionally & by default, the Macintosh has always used square pens on screen and with QuickDraw-printing, whereas PostScript has always used round pens.

ArchiCAD has always had its own graphics system with round pens on screen, possibly also in non-PS -printing. All other Macintosh programs have relied on the OS-level pens. In OS X, the "meaningless gobbled-gook" (which some kind forum member posted a few years ago - to me it is also gobblede-gook, but works), one was given a choice of pens: square or round. However, this is an OS-wide choice and not everyone may like round pens.

Whatever: since 1987 or something, VW has "worked as advertised". If you have had a PostScript printer, you have had round pens. If a QuickDraw printer, square pens. Surely Mr. VectorWorks is not responsible for your printer purchases.

On screen? Yes, that is a pity, although while "draughting" I prefer not to even see line weigths. In my system, I know that they'll be OK as everything is "by class" & "classed". (This does, after a fashion, resemble your AutoCAD-style colour coding!)

[altoids]

Petri,

Reasons and justification for unhappy customers in a subsequent post, but first...

We're wandering off topic but I think you'll find you are mistaken about line widths.

Until VW12 was released, VW on a Mac (OS X) printing to a PostScript printer did not draw or print diagonal lines correctly because NNA had not updated their drawing routines since OS 9. Nothing to do with Apple. Even though the Mac's OS X screen was driven by PostScript since '01, VW used old imaging routines. Even Katie admitted as much, when she wrote:

The printing issue with thick lines is directly linked to VW 11 being a carbonized application and that technology. The alleviate the problem, checkmark Rasterize Print Output in the Print dialog box under the VectorWorks section.

With that said, VectorWorks 12 is now a quartz application, dropping OS 9, so as to not have the thick lines problem. This is only one of the many benefits of being a true Quartz application.

Some of the other benefits of Quartz include the ability to export directly to PDF, true transparency (yes, on PC too!), true line thickness on the screen and prints (because of the ability to draw and print with a round pen), and many more.

Note that she used "alleviate" not rectify or fix. Also," carbonized" is a Mac term for software written using the old, legacy routines that runs on OSX. Please read the whole thread referenced above "Wrong Line Thickness (revisited) .

[altoids]

Petri,

I would maintain that VW12 is a half-baked BIM tool. Half-baked is not an ANSI measurement, but derived from the level of annoyance from trying to use the software. The most glaring example is the selection tool.

Good programming guides dictate that only the relevant tools appear for the operation you are performing. This is why items on menus are dimmed as they become irrelevant to the user's current operation. This should be persuasive throughout the whole program and from the VW13 blurbs, it sounds like this has been at least partially implemented, with only relevant command appearing in pop-up menus.

However, 3D modeling in VW fails this good design guideline with their selection tool, the most basic and commonly used tool. There is no need for two types of selection arrows that perform exactly the same function in 2D and 3D. A not-half-baked program wold have one selection tool, and when I click on an object, the software would determine the objects properties, something software is exceptionally good and fast at doing. Once it determined if the object is 2 or 3D, the palettes would show me what commands I can execute, no need for me to tell VW what it already knows.

Moreover, the tools should remain exactly where I leave them. If I put a screwdriver down on my bench, when I next reach for it without think, it should still be there. When it is not (having rolled off the bench) I waste my time looking for it, loose my train of thought etc. VW has the problem of round handled screwdrivers. For many tools it simply requires too much effort to use. The tools should be invisible, second nature, reflexive. I don't want to have to think about how to use the program, I want to think about the design. All I want to do is point and click, and not have to interrupt my train of thought just to use the correct function.

This is characterized by yet another programming and software design guideline that software should be written to minimize the user's effort, not the programmer's effort. VW dual selection arrow likely arose as it was easier to add a second icon and write all new routines for the 3D environment than rewriting the existing routines. This adding of a new button for each new function is awful user interface design, but easy on the software engineer design team.

[quigley]

2 selection arrows - you like Adobe has had in Illustrator since day 1? The selection arrows do serve different purposes as you can draw pure 2D (screen plane) in a 3D layer

[altoids]

Illustrator's two arrows are not the program's finest moment and although both icons are arrows, they function differently. The black arrow is for selecting and moving objects and the white arrow is for manipulating the points within those objects. I think Adobe confuses many users with the two (actually called the selection and direct selection tool). It would be much better if they rolled the two similar functions into a single tool, with, say an option (alt) key press to choose a point or object.

I don't understand why I need why different arrows in VW to draw in a 3D window. Can you give me a concrete example of when both are necessary? The selection tool, in 2 or 3D does exactly the same thing - selects the object under the point of the arrow.

[quigley]

I don't understand why I need why different arrows in VW to draw in a 3D window. Can you give me a concrete example of when both are necessary? The selection tool, in 2 or 3D does exactly the same thing - selects the object under the point of the arrow.

Not quite the same. If you draw a wall and flip the view to isometric, then draw a rectangle (a 2D one) the 2D select tool will select and resize the rectangle and select and translate the wall, but not edit it. Whereas the 3D select tool will not move or resize the rectangle but will let the 3D elements be moved and resized.

I grant you that this is an areas that could be cleaned up - maybe for VW2009? But until we get a true unified 2D/3D modelling environment (like say FormZ) there is not much point.

[Petri]

Petri,

I would maintain that VW12 is a half-baked BIM tool. Half-baked is not an ANSI measurement, but derived from the level of annoyance from trying to use the software. The most glaring example is the selection tool.

OK. You don't like the user interface - fair enough: those issues are personal likes and dislikes. I though you were referring to VW's BIM-capabilities.

[Guest]

Altoids,

One of the nice features of VW 2008 is the last mode used of a tool is stored not only with the session but across sessions. This eliminates the need to constantly go and choose what is expected to be a default mode (which is what I am understanding you are looking for in your most recent post)

A request for a single 2D / 3D selection tool has been added to the wish list.

I recommend wish list items be posted to the Wish List forum, where they will be read and added to the database.

[Jershaun]

Petri:

I'm busy making a list. I'm up to 14 items. But just as an example for now: Sills in section don't cut walls as expected and un-necessary line are drawn which one has to cover up manually. BIM software isn't supposed to do this.

Christiaan:

Yes. I use VW. I don't want to use other software. I'm not interested in other software's shortfalls. I'm only interested in VW because again, I use VW only. I am only interested in what VW lacks.

IMHO, I believe VW has the potential to be the best software out there, so it irritates me when a release is made, with making a couple of steps forward. We need to make a huge leap forward. And by that I mean it has to be a more BIM software and especially the final out, has to be more cleaner with less user cover ups.

Thanks,

[Guest]

Hi

I support Shaun. I like my VW. But there is functions and tools that are quite old and available along time ago in even 2nd grade CAD packages and are a standard to have in a CAD program both in 2D and 3D. This critics is not due to the fact of a dislike in VW but to keep on pushing them to get to at least the ACCEPTABLE level of standard tools. VW's 3D is horric, a very bad current situation and something I personally hoped for that they would have adressed but unfortunately they decided to get the elementary stuff PARTLY in place for a cost of an upgrade at nearly $ 1,000-00 in South Africa. WOW - worth it ?

Bought the Vectorbits schedule and VW V12.5.2 is much much better to work with. Many, not all of the 2D frustrations are gone. The 3D is still a neck breaker situation though. Thus is it worth to upgrade at that cost for the LITTLE VW improvements that is should have been's and Vectorbits partly satisfied ?

[Petri]

Petri:

I'm busy making a list. I'm up to 14 items. But just as an example for now: Sills in section don't cut walls as expected and un-necessary line are drawn which one has to cover up manually. BIM software isn't supposed to do this.

Actually, as comes to BIM, things like this are totally irrelevant. There is no expectation for the modeling software to produce perfect drawings. The world-leading publication "Product modeling in architecural design" (unfortunately not available in English despite my pleas) by the Finnish industry working party ProIT has several illustrations depicting the difference between relevant BIM/PM and "drawings" & "details". As a law-abiding person, I don't think I can scan & publish these.

Yet - annoying, isn't it!

[Christiaan]

Could you maybe scan and post parts of each page?

[Petri]

Privately - sure. Publishing - not without a clearance from the copyright holder.

But wait a minute: if I publish an article or review on the publication , I can surely quote parts of it.

Now - wait another minute: I offered to do exactly this on the Architosh Forum, but Anthony Fausto-Robledo showed no interest whatsoever. I'm not sure if a promotional/commercial site such as this qualifies as a bona fide publication.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Petri

[Jershaun]

Petri:

How can you say standards of drawings are irrelevant. When I used to do my drawings on a drawing board, I was taught to follow a certain level of standard AND our local authorities also requires a level of standards.

So VW, as a BIM software (or whatever you call it), at present isn't meeting those standards.

[Guest]

Everyone in this discussion:

This is a good discussion to have. Please be sure to post your wish list items to the Wish List forum to ensure they are added to the database.

[Petri]

Petri:

How can you say standards of drawings are irrelevant.

I didn't - I'd never say such a thing! But BIM is not about drawings.